Could Vader use Force lightning?

[XRogue]

We never see him use it at all. Any thoughts on why?

I'm thinking Vader technically *can* but it might short the suit's circuits. That seems to be what happened to cause his suit to stop working. Yes, he lost a mechanical hand to Luke shortly before that, but Vader didn't start wheezing for real till he threw Palp down the shaft and got a big dose of lightning. Seemed to be breathing alright (well, at least alright for him) up till then.

Thoughts?

[The Telcontarion]

I got the impression that after the defeat of the jedi, the emporer withheld knowledge from Vader; he never did teach him how to keep people alive -which I he didn't know anyway, which to me is just an illustration of all his intentions towards his new apprentice.

Remember how he said that powerful sith lord died, he died because he taught his apprentice everything he knew and was betrayed, killed in his sleep by his apprentice. I donot doubt this made an impression on Lord sidious.

Besides, I have never seen Obi Wan use force lightning.

[Curubethion]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I got the impression that after the defeat of the jedi, the emporer withheld knowledge from Vader; he never did teach him how to keep people alive -which I he didn't know anyway, which to me is just an illustration of all his intentions towards his new apprentice.

Remember how he said that powerful sith lord died, he died because he taught his apprentice everything he knew and was betrayed, killed in his sleep by his apprentice. I do not doubt this made an impression on Lord sidious.

Excellent answer! I also agree with the "short-circuiting" hypothesis, but this also covers it well.

And of course we all know who the apprentice of that "powerful Sith Lord" was...Mr. Palpatine himself. And traitors are ever mistrustful.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Excellent answer! I also agree with the "short-circuiting" hypothesis, but this also covers it well.

And of course we all know who the apprentice of that "powerful Sith Lord" was...Mr. Palpatine himself. And traitors are ever mistrustful.

Yep, I always believed as well that the apprentice inquestion was palpatine himself.

[XRogue]

I agree, Plagueis' apprentice was most likely Palpatine. And given the "only 2 sith" rule, I would expect treachery if I was the Sith Master......after all, if there can only be a master and an apprentice, then the apprentice basically has to do away with his master somehow.

Therefore Palpatine has a motivation to leave Vader ignorant on many matters. Good point there.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by XRogue

I agree, Plagueis' apprentice was most likely Palpatine. And given the "only 2 sith" rule, I would expect treachery if I was the Sith Master......after all, if there can only be a master and an apprentice, then the apprentice basically has to do away with his master somehow.

Therefore Palpatine has a motivation to leave Vader ignorant on many matters. Good point there.

I have to agree as well, on the suit hypothesis as well as the Palpatine/mistrust one.

Another good question is, Yoda obviously knew about force lighning, because he deflected Dooku's. So the questions comes to my mind, did Yoda know how to use force lightning himself if he'd wanted to?

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I have to agree as well, on the suit hypothesis as well as the Palpatine/mistrust one.

Another good question is, Yoda obviously knew about force lighning, because he deflected Dooku's. So the questions comes to my mind, did Yoda know how to use force lightning himself if he'd wanted to?

Oh yeah, of course, he used it himself against the emporer in that final battle. He was not just merely deflecting there, their lightning collided remember, propelling both in opposite directions.

Also, I have to say, I always saw a corollation between "the maring" of Feanor ("most evil deed of morgoth") and the maring of Anikin by Palpitine.

[XRogue]

There are quite a few similarities between Tolkien's works and the SW galaxy. After all, George Lucas has said he borrowed from a lot of places for his ideas, and LOTR was one of them....

[Curubethion]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Oh yeah, of course, he used it himself against the emporer in that final battle. He was not just merely deflecting there, their lightning collided remember, propelling both in opposite directions.

Wierd, because Force Lightning would seem to me to be something that Yoda would definitely not dabble in. After all, it seems to be the closest linked to the Dark Side of the Force, given its vicious destructive nature. And it's obviously not a choice example of harmony, etc.

[Alcuin]

The Star Wars website FAQ section (look under “Episode III Lore”, “Can Vader use the Force with his metal arm?”) says that while many Force abilities were based upon concentration and focus, Sith used their physical bodies to use Force lightening. Vader had lost both his hands: his right hand to Dooku, his left to Obi Wan.

When Vader raises his arm to telekinetically strangle someone, he is raising his mechanical replacement limb. With that particular ability, though, the raising of a limb is not actually part of the power. The arm is not acting as a conduit for the Force. Raising an arm towards a target in this case is really more of a mental focusing exercise -- you'll note that Vader had no problem strangling Ozzel without lifting a finger. There are examples of telekinesis in the films with and without gesturing, strongly suggesting that the gestures are not a prerequisite, but rather indications of concentration or even personal style.

Powers like Force lightning, however, actually do use the limb as a conduit for a physical manifestation of energy. The Force may be what creates the lightning, but it's the limb that safely directs it. Imagine, cinematically, trying to convey Force lightning without the use of gestures. Where would it come out of? How would it be aimed?

The same site under “Episode II Lore”, “Is using Force lightning inherently evil?” says that

…Yoda says in The Empire Strikes Back [that] a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. There's no way to rationalize Force lightning as a defensive power. It's using the Force in an extremely aggressive fashion, so yes, it is inherently a power of the dark side, and using it could have terrible consequences….

[hectorberlioz]

Hmm...Tel, I had not noticed Yoda's own FL in fight with Emporer, but I coul be wrong...I had thought, as in the fight with Dooku, that he as simply "returning" it.

Curu, you have a point about Yoda not dabbling in it...and Alcuin has posted some interesting clues...

But surely Yoda, KNEW HOW?

[XRogue]

A good way to defend against something, is to know all about that something. Now Yoda may not practiced this maxim by knowing all about the Sith or the Dark Side, but since he has an almost perfect defense against Force lightning, he must have known something about how to do it. That, and seen it before, many times, so got some practice.

But at 900+ years old....you have to have seen a few things.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by XRogue

We never see him use it at all. Any thoughts on why?

I'm thinking Vader technically *can* but it might short the suit's circuits. That seems to be what happened to cause his suit to stop working. Yes, he lost a mechanical hand to Luke shortly before that, but Vader didn't start wheezing for real till he threw Palp down the shaft and got a big dose of lightning. Seemed to be breathing alright (well, at least alright for him) up till then.

Thoughts?

That's always been my feeling. My family members used to wonder why Vader died when his hand got cut off, and my thought always was that it was that his suit got busted by the Emperor's lightning. Using lightning himself would have been impossible for the same reason.

So yeah, I agree with you.

[Curubethion]

Originally Posted by XRogue

A good way to defend against something, is to know all about that something. Now Yoda may not practiced this maxim by knowing all about the Sith or the Dark Side, but since he has an almost perfect defense against Force lightning, he must have known something about how to do it. That, and seen it before, many times, so got some practice.

But at 900+ years old....you have to have seen a few things.

Maybe...but there's ways to defend against something you've never seen. For example, you (hopefully) don't know that much about Osama Bin Laden, but you'd be able to protect yourself against him.

I just don't know about the idea that Yoda could use FL...it just clashes with his character.

[XRogue]

Heh, well, Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist, but he's also human.The rest of us can use his methods to acheive our aims, but we don't, because it isn't in the character of most humans to do so. Capable, we are, yes, but we don't go there because we know it's a bad idea.

Yoda may not be the same species as Dooku or Palp, who we both see using Force lightning, but they are all Force users. In the same way, Yoda may be capable of using, or at least understanding how to use, lightning, but he doesn't do it because it is an offensive attack, and I suspect, draining to the target's life force. Not that Yoda thinks killing is wrong, say in self defense, as with the clones who tried to order 66 him, but to kill in the way a Darksider would, nah.

Leif, it makes sense that removing or damaging an arm would not knock out the suit electronics to the point it would cease to breathe for Vader. The suit's primary function is to act as an iron lung, after all, and I'd think the priorities in the system would be set up to guard that function to the last. Vader could all too easily lose an arm or leg in a fight, the breathing function would logically be kept separate.

Besides, I think it was meant to look like his active choice to kill Palpatine was what actually killed Vader.

[hectorberlioz]

So obviously Yoda knows SOMETHING about force lightning, which brings us to the question of who was his teacher, and what HE knew...

(Let's get down to the nitty gritty: Yoda is a former Sith)

[orithil]

hmm from what i saw yoda asorbed palps force lighting then shot it back at him also why did we never see darth maul using force lighting maybe he just did not know it but you would expect him to beable to.
yoda i think could use force lighting but how would he learn it since it is not taught in the jedi academy then yodas master would have to be a sith.

In conclusion
Why would a sith teach him even if he wasnt a jedi by then. a sith would probely still not teach it to such an alien.

[The Telcontarion]

First let me say that I don't believe that force lightning was solely a characteristic of the darkside. I think once you get to a certain level of understanding of the force, you are able to use it.

We all hear about jedi turning to the darkside, what about the other wau around...

Could Yoda have originally been discovered by a sith, who one day just happened upon a piculiar creature on an alien swamp world that just happens to be the most powerful being he had ever encountered with the force...would he train him as his apprentice, I think so.

The question is, could Yoda's will be strong enough that even after training - probably learning about the jedi was the catalyst - that corrupted his heart and twisted his reasoning, he could still be so intuned with the true nature of the force and the universe, that he found away to turn from the darkside and chose, with free will to be a jedi. Could Yoda have been such a one? I say yes.

Yoda was always at peace, he accepted reality, even when the jedi was destroyed he was calm and accepted his duty. I think this would explain his greater understanding of the force. He new and was sensitive to the darkside and was able to see clearly the emmotions and bad habits that lead to it; he would never go back. Best way to teach a child to fear fire is to allow them to get burned.

[orithil]

He didn't really seem to be the type to even let himself be trained in the dark side.
he probely understood the ways of the sith even could use them maybe be his teacher was certinly not a sith when luke walked into jabbas palace and those two gamorian guards were guarding the door it was quite odvious that he used force choke which is a dark side power meaning that he learnt it without a sith training him. so i suspect that yoda could've done it twice as easily learning the dark side with out a trainer that is.

[hectorberlioz]

Aha! Orithil, you have raised an interesting question: where did Luke learn the Force Choke?

Tel, I raise the question, is Yoda really from Dagobah?