Bombadil...theories? The Ring had no effect on him!

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

Hi guys, am new here but i've been reading tolkien books for years, and i almost read every book. And concerning Bombadil, i think he's one of the Ainur who didn't land in the begining of history, for as was said in the sil.. not all of the ainur landed in earth, but some followed them after, maybe Bombadil was one of the Ainur, and Gandalf said that he's the oldest in middle earth!!!

[Ñólendil]

Welcome!

The problem with that theory is that Tom said he was in the world before the Dark Lord came from Outside, and Tolkien said he was Eldest in Time, which is the life of Eä and began when Eä was first set amid the innumerable stars, before the Valar set foot there.

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

But if he wasn't of the Ainur, then what is he? And then how was he the eldest of the living things and also came before Melkor?
Maybe he's just tolkien and this is his way to insert himself in the story!!!!!!and he knows about everything that goes on the earth!! and he had power on the Barrow-Wight!

[Ñólendil]

I think you strike rather near the point. What is he? indeed. I don't think anyone will ever know. JRR Tolkien knew, but if he ever wrote it down it hasn't been published, in a way I'm glad it hasn't.

But Bombadil was not aware of everything that took place. He made no secret of the fact that he owed his recent knowledge to Farmer Maggot. I imagine that if you conceive of JRR Tolkien as knowing all about Arda or Eä, he wouldn't need to ask Maggot about doings in the Shire.

I personally think Tolkien and his wife are more clearly seen in Beren and Lúthien.

As equally puzzling as the question about Tom is 'what is Goldberry?' I don't think the two questions are necessarily bound together.

[Comic Book Guy]

Isn't she something like "Daughter of the River"? Something to do with Yavanna?

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Welcome!

The problem with that theory is that Tom said he was in the world before the Dark Lord came from Outside, and Tolkien said he was Eldest in Time, which is the life of E?and began when E?was first set amid the innumerable stars, before the Valar set foot there.

Please, what is E?

[ringbearer]

originally posted by Inolonil..."JRR Tolkien knew, but if he ever wrote it down it hasn't been published, in a way I'm glad it hasn't."

Just a wonderfull mystery! Perhaps on purpose! We do not even begin to even know stuff about our own Earth!

[Ñólendil]

I don't know what happened to your quote, but the original text has 'Eä' and then a space before 'and' and 'was' where they occur: ' ... which is the life of Eä and began when Eä was first set amid the innumerable stars, ... ' Eä being the vast World That Is, that Is because of the Ainulindalë, Arda was set within it.

Absolutely, regarding Bombadil! And it was on purpose. In 1954 JRR Tolkien wrote:

There is of course a clash between 'literary' technique, and the fascination of elaborating in detail an imaginary mythical Age (mythical, not allegorical: my mind does not work allegorically). As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists); and I have perhaps from this point of view erred in trying to explain too much, and give too much past history. Many readers have, for instance, rather stuck at the Council of Elrond. And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

[ringbearer]

The Truth about Tom Bombadil
From a rec.arts.books.tolkien posting dated 3 May 1996.
At last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.

Ready?

Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.

1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.

2. You never see the two of them together.

3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).

4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." (Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!
Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."

5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p. 208 hardback)

6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!
(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much." Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)

...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here.

...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!

...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."

[stormcrow]

"Within the Tolkien household Tom Bombadil was originally a Dutch doll belonging to one of Tolkien's children (Carpenter, Tolkien, p. 162; Grotta-Rurska, Tolkien, p. 101). Tolkien later wrote a poem about him called "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil," published in Oxford Magazine in 1934, long before the writing of the Lord of the Rings began. "...


This is from the following essay which does a good and fair job, I believe, of examining the Bombadil question from a wide vantage:

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

Another good essay is to be found at:

http://tolkien.cro.net/else/tombom.html

"Tolkien introduced Tom into The Lord of the Rings at a very early stage, when he still thought of it as a sequel to the The Hobbit, as opposed to the The Silmarillion (the tone was changed during the first chapters of The Lord of the Rings). Tom fit the original (slightly childish) tone of the early chapters (which resembled that of the The Hobbit), but as the story progressed it became higher in tone and darker in nature. Tolkien later claimed that he left Tom in he decided that however portrayed Tom provided a necessary ingredient (see last paragraph). Some very cogent reasons are produced in a couple of wonderful letters.
(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 144 & 153)..."

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

What ringbearer said was quite intresting though there are some defects and mistakes... My friend you said that the Witch King is of a high numenorean blood, but not of the good blood for they were called the drak numenoreans, and i mean the nine of them! for they were of the King's men as JRRT said in LOTR Appendecies!! and these were insnared by Sauron in the first place and they used to rule the Harad!!! so he can't have felt betrayed by sauron for he was as a vassal to him in the first place!! And he can't have helped Frodo in the Barrow Downs then he comes to kill him at weathertop!!! and another intresting thing that Gandalf couldn't go to talk to him if he knows he's dead!! and if he's the Witch King then who's Goldberry????

[Ñólendil]

Shelob, obviously.

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by Lord_Ov_The_Thunder
What ringbearer said was quite intresting though there are some defects and mistakes... My friend you said that the Witch King is of a high numenorean blood, but not of the good blood for they were called the drak numenoreans, and i mean the nine of them! for they were of the King's men as JRRT said in LOTR Appendecies!! and these were insnared by Sauron in the first place and they used to rule the Harad!!! so he can't have felt betrayed by sauron for he was as a vassal to him in the first place!! And he can't have helped Frodo in the Barrow Downs then he comes to kill him at weathertop!!! and another intresting thing that Gandalf couldn't go to talk to him if he knows he's dead!! and if he's the Witch King then who's Goldberry????

This is not my theory...it was pasted from another site. I put it here, because it is so "off the wall".

[Taramoor]

I kinda feel I have to ask this:

What's the exact dialogue of Tom after Frodo puts on the ring. I could've sworn he said something along the lines of "my friend, where have you gone?" I thought it went:

Tom puts on the ring.
Nothing happens.
Frodo puts on the ring,
Tom can't see him.

Maybe I just haven't re-read them recently enough. But I was almost sure that's what happened.

[Ñólendil]

Welcome Taramoor! Here's you dialogue:

Merry turned towards him to say something and gave a start, and checked an exclamation. Frodo was delighted (in a way): it was his own ring all right, for Merry was staring blankly at his chair, and obviously could not see him. He got up and crept quietly away from the fireside towards the outer door.

'Hey there!' cried Tom, glancing towards him with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. 'Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring! Your hand's more fair without it. Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me! We must talk a while more, and think about the morning. Tom must teach the right road, and keey your feet from wandering.'

Frodo laughed. (trying to feel pleased), and taking off the Ring he came and sat down again.

[Comic Book Guy]

Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet.

That seems to suggest that seeing invisable people is natural to him.

[Ñólendil]

Of course it does! He was himself a spirit, he must have been a part of the Unseen Realm.

[ArwenEvenstar]

i remember a post when this forum was in the 'first age'(i may appear a newbie but i used to know this forum pretty well) i recall somebody saying JRRT didn't say much about him because he wanted an air of mystery, maybe tolkien could tell the future in a way and saw ppl talking about stuff like this

[Gandalf]

Tom (Iarwain Ban-adar, Orald, Forn) is indeed a Maia.
"As he was the first he will be last" I believe were Gandalf's words in the Council. He was the first of the Maia.
That's LOTR's version ...

my version however is a bit different.
I believe that Tom IS Middle Earth. As the Vala and the Maia are Eru's thoughts, Tom is middle earth. He does not control it, Eru does not control the Maia nor Vala, but it cannot control him either. He is his own master, as Gandalf said. He will only perish when Middle Earth perishes.

- Bram

[Agburanar]

good thought. Did he know, then, how the war of the ring was going to end? Otherwise he may have been a little bothered that Middle Earth might indeed end.