Why did the Nazgûl drop Merry in Bree?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Doesn't Bree as seen in that map seem a bit large? Doing some (very) rough measurements and calculations, Bree would have been somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 hectares. I checked around the internet a little bit, but was unable to find any really useful/reliable information regarding the typical sizes of Medieval European towns. Even so, the impression I get is that 200 hectares appears too big, even when considering that the Bree we see in The Lord of the Rings was much less populated than during earlier days, when there was greater traffic on the roads.

Yes, CAB, I have just thought the same thing. The road through Bree from one gate to another on Fonstad's map is a mile long! It takes half an hour, presumably, to traverse the town. But well - what I have written below corresponds to distances given by Fonstad. Keep that in mind.

I have been re-reading the Pony and "Strider" chapters. Here are some points we might have overlooked.

1.The Isengarder, as evidenced by Butterbur, had arrived to Bree the previous evening (Sept. 28) with a company of other Dunlendings. Note that this company had to be let through by the nazgul B and C who were guarding the Greenway, while the WK (A) was in the Barrows. Strider must have known that the Greenway was blocked by the nazgul, so the arriving company was definitely suspicious to Strider from the start.

But another implication is that the Southerner only just made contact with Ferny himself (maybe they knew each other previously, maybe not). What about the nazgul H and I who passed through Bree on Sept 26? The Dunlending was not yet come. Did the nazgul make acquaintance with Ferny all on their own? Did they "chance" upon him or did they get the info about him from the Dunlending during his questioning on the road south of Bree? Did Harry Goatleaf sent them to Ferny? Anyway there is a possibility that on Sept 26 the nazgul didn’t meet Ferny at all, so maybe they didn’t go straight to Ferny’s house on Sept. 29. Perhaps they only got there following the Isengarder on his way out of the Inn.
Note here: Strider did say about Ferny: “Queer folk call at his house” I wonder did he mean the nazgul or the Southerner/other ruffians?

2. Important for Alcuin's timeline: Ferny and the Southerner and Harry DID NOT leave Pony together with the crowd of dissatisfied Breefolk. They left at least 10-15 minutes before them, if not more, STRAIGHT AFTER the Ring-trick. The rest remained excited, wondering and arguing about the explanation for quite some time, first with Butterbur, then with Frodo himself. In your time-line, Alcuin, you should correct Ferny’s column, IMO, making the three bad guys leave almost at the same time as Frodo has accident, about 9.47 PM.

So, if, as you say, Alcuin, Merry was by the front door by the time of Frodo’s accident, he may have not registered the exit of three inconspicuous men while he was gazing at stars. The exit of a whole crowd later he couldn’t have missed, so it is safe to assume the general exit occurred later.

My version of events:
9.45 Merry returns from stroll, gazes at stars. Frodo has “accident.” The Nazgul (H) is immobile in the shadows, watching the Common room windows from across the street.
9.47 Ferny+Isengarder quietly exit, turn south, Merry pays them no heed - he is still by the door.
9.49 The Nazgul (H) stirs and starts to follow after Ferny+Isengarder; he moves past Merry. (He had been opposite the windows of the common room, thus to the north from Merry and has to go south). His movement is observed by Merry and the Nazgul notices his awareness. The Nazgul lures Merry to follow, thinking to learn something useful from questioning the hobbit, if the Isengarder's report proves uninteresting. So they go south: Ferny and Isengarder are ahead, then the Nazgul, then Merry who has lost the sight of those ahead and falls behind.
10.05 Ferny and Isengarder reach Ferny’s house (It is about ¾ of a mile from Pony to Ferny’s house. It takes the Men about 15 min to get there) The Nazgul catches up with them and the Isengarder makes his report by the hedge.
10.10 Merry reaches Ferny’s house (it takes the hobbit about 20 min to get there). He overhears the conversation (Nazgul-Isengarder) by the hedge.
10.15 Merry faints from Black Breath and lies there. The Nazgul hears the rest of the news and forgets about Merry.
10.20 Nazgul H leaves Bree to send his comrade F to the WK. If the other two nazgul (FI) and the three horses are outside of Bree, it may take some time: about 45 min to find the others and to return back.
(that is my explanation why Merry had been left lying on the road for so long.)

3. Now let us return to the parlor.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

“Butterbur shows up with Gandalf's letter; sends Nob to find Merry”.

But a lot of time passes between Butterbur coming to the parlor and the sending of Nob to look for Merry. At least 15 min, I think. Thus Alcuin, you should postpone Nob’s departure to 10.30, IMO.

4. The account of the conversation in the parlor between the time Nob was sent to look for Merry and their return I read in under 15 minutes. But on Fonstad’s map of Bree the distance between the West Gate and South Gate is about a mile (by the road). Nob traveled this distance twice: Pony-West Gate – South Gate- Pony: so two miles overall. It had to take him about an hour to return to the Pony with Merry. Thus I place their return to the parlor at 11.25-11.30

10.30 Nob leaves the Pony, goes to West gate, then back to Pony (passing it around 10.50), then goes to South gate
10.50 Outside the South Gate Nazgul F leaves for Andrath with the news. The first nazgul H goes back, climbs over the gate and returns to Bree.
11.05 The first nazgul H returns to Ferny’s house, sees Merry still in a swoon on the road and orders Ferny and the Isengarder to carry him inside Bill’s house.
11.10. Nob comes to Ferny’s house (20 min from Pony), shouts and the ruffians drop Merry.
11.25 Nob and Merry return to the Pony (it takes them only 15 min, because they run all the way.)

What do you think?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Does anyone know the correct GMT times for sunrise, sunset, and twilight for September 29 and 30, 1941? Those must be the times Tolkien himself used: they will be a little different from the times for 2009.

Sunrise for London, September 30, 1941, without DST, according to this site:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/sunriseset.html
is 5:59AM.

[Olmer]

I have just thought the same thing. The road through Bree from one gate to another on Fonstad's map is a mile long! It takes half an hour, presumably, to traverse the town.

By my calculation the size of the town is aprox. 60-70 acres, which is normal for a small town. Have to bear in mind that usually the dwellings are being consructed along the main road, so the town could be not much of the size, but a pretty long on the stretch.

So, if, as you say, Alcuin, Merry was by the front door by the time of Frodo’s accident, he may have not registered the exit of three inconspicuous men while he was gazing at stars. The exit of a whole crowd later he couldn’t have missed, so it is safe to assume the general exit occurred later.

I think that he missed the exit of the whole crowd all right. Because, according to the book, he did not stay by the front of the tavern, but away from the light. Presumably not too far from the hobbit's lodging on the back of the inn. Whatever shade or shape he saw across the street from this distance, it was not clear enough to make a positive ID. So, he had to go "around the corner" to get to the main street, and then he would pass the front door of the inn on his way to the South-gates.

[Attalus]

Not totally relevant, but interesting is that Shakespeare, in Henry IV, Part 2 has Falstaff remind Shallow that "We have heard the chimes at midnight," suggesting that this was an unusual accomplishment. However in the Middle Ages, the monks and nuns were forced to rise in the middle of the night for the "Midnight Office" (not usually prayed by the laity) and "Vespers" at dawn. Admittedly, Middle-earth was a pre-Christian society, but this shows it was not unheard of.

[CAB]

I don't know, Olmer. The road runs from north to south through Bree for approximately 7000 feet. If Bree was only 70 acres, then it would have been a band 440 feet wide along the road. This can't be correct. If Bree was 70 hectares (1 hectare is about 2.5 acres), then the band would have been 1100 feet wide. But according to the map 1100 feet from the road wouldn't have reached the hedge to the west (even if the entire 1100 feet was on the west side of the road) or a large proportion of the houses to the east (even if the entire 1100 feet was on the east side of the road).

Like I said, I don't know much about this. Still, according to this map the dike and hedge were about 2.5 miles long yet still didn't come anywhere close to encircling the whole town. Does that sound like the Bree that Frodo and Co. encounter? If these distances are correct, then the Hobbits living at the end of the road winding up the hillside had to walk about a mile and a half to get to their local tavern. Poor saps. If they needed to get from their homes to the south gate, they had a two and a half mile walk ahead of them, through what Tolkien described as a village. Seems like a rather large village to me.

Gordis, I like your sequence of events concerning the early departure of Ferny and the Southerner, the Nazgul following them, and this causing Merry to notice and then follow the Nazgul. Makes sense.

I think some of your times are greatly stretched due to working with a map that depicts Bree as being much larger than it should be. For instance, there is no way that the time between Aragorn meeting the Hobbits in the parlor and Merry's return should/could have been over an hour. I would like to wait and see what Alcuin has to say about the map situation before making any more comments regarding the distances in Bree.

Originally Posted by Gordis

But a lot of time passes between Butterbur coming to the parlor and the sending of Nob to look for Merry. At least 15 min, I think. Thus Alcuin, you should postpone Nob’s departure to 10.30, IMO.

Actually, Alcuin's timeline agrees with these times. If they arrived at the beginning of the 10:15 to 10:30 block and Nob left at the end of it, then it accommodates your times, Gordis.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Did the nazgul make acquaintance with Ferny all on their own? Did they "chance" upon him or did they get the info about him from the Dunlending during his questioning on the road south of Bree? Did Harry Goatleaf sent them to Ferny? Anyway there is a possibility that on Sept 26 the nazgul didn’t meet Ferny at all, so maybe they didn’t go straight to Ferny’s house on Sept. 29. Perhaps they only got there following the Isengarder on his way out of the Inn.

Good question. If I recall correctly, in The Hunt for the Ring, it is said that the Nazgul got only information about the Shire from the Southerner they captured. Still, once the Witch King realized the Shire's location and proximity to Bree (and thus, Bree's importance) he may have demanded information regarding Saruman's spies in Bree. This would be my guess concerning how the Nazgul came to learn about Ferny, but certainly there are other workable scenarios.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Note here: Strider did say about Ferny: “Queer folk call at his house” I wonder did he mean the nazgul or the Southerner/other ruffians?

The wording here leads me to believe that this has been going on for a while, since long before the time we are discussing. This fits with Ferny's having been a spy of Saruman and with the Rangers having been aware of Saruman's spies for a good while prior to Frodo's flight.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I think that he missed the exit of the whole crowd all right. Because, according to the book, he did not stay by the front of the tavern, but away from the light. Presumably not too far from the hobbit's lodging on the back of the inn. Whatever shade or shape he saw across the street from this distance, it was not clear enough to make a positive ID. So, he had to go "around the corner" to get to the main street, and then he would pass the front door of the inn on his way to the South-gates.

Good catch about the corner, Olmer.

'It seemed to make off up the Road, eastward,' continued Merry. 'I tried to follow. Of course, it vanished almost at once; but I went round the corner and on as far as the last house on the Road.'

So if we look at the upper right drawing of the inn here, Merry appeared to stay on the north lane by the long side wall with hobbit's rooms windows, parlor windows and common room windows. (Grosse Wirtz-stube - is that the Common room? Looks too small for my tastes...) Anyway it has windows opening to two sides: on the north lane and on the road by the entrance. Naturally the nazgul also preferred to stay in the lane, away from the busy entrance, but likely he watched the door as well. To go south, both the nazgul and Merry had to go round the corner.

However, I don't believe that the nazgul waited long after the exit of the Isengarder - he must have been impatient to hear the news. Therefore the crowd left the Inn after the nazgul and Merry were gone.

Originally Posted by CAB

I think some of your times are greatly stretched due to working with a map that depicts Bree as being much larger than it should be. For instance, there is no way that the time between Aragorn meeting the Hobbits in the parlor and Merry's return should/could have been over an hour. I would like to wait and see what Alcuin has to say about the map situation before making any more comments regarding the distances in Bree.

I fully agree. Maybe instead of miles, the scalebar should be in kilometers? If the map is translated to German, it would make sense. Here maybe lies the mistake.
And that reduces all the distances 3:1.

Originally Posted by CAB

The wording here leads me to believe that this has been going on for a while, since long before the time we are discussing. This fits with Ferny's having been a spy of Saruman and with the Rangers having been aware of Saruman's spies for a good while prior to Frodo's flight.

Makes sense. Naturally Strider thought them to be Mordor spies, not Saruman's.

[Gordis]

Oh, just noticed the side entrance, from the lane, right between the parlor and the Hobbits' rooms! Of course Merry stood by it!
The nazgul likely stood closer to the corner to watch both entrances to the Inn.

Edit : Two entrances fit this quote:

'Good night to you,' said Nob, and went off to take his part in the watch on the doors.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Sunrise for London, September 30, 1941, without DST, according to this site:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/sunriseset.html
is 5:59AM.

Hmm... Frodo said to Butterbur:

'In any case we must be called at dawn,' said Frodo. 'We must get off as early as possible. Breakfast at six-thirty, please.'

If dawn is 6.30, then sunrise would be at seven. But maybe they needed an hour to get dressed for breakfast?

[Alcuin]

Well, I am certainly delighted that everyone is looking hard at this to determine what happened in Bree and when and where. Gordis, I think you are correct: I reread “The Sign of the Prancing Pony”, and Ferny and the Isengarder left the Inn quite soon after Frodo’s “accident”, with Harry the Gatekeeper (who has been suffering Heisenberg Syndrome for 5 years now) in tow, before the rest of the crowd, who stayed . Let me reread it to be sure that I have everything in order, I will make that correction in the rough time-line.

I have one comment on the all overwhelming information:

I will do the best I can to fit everything that’s still out of place into the rough time-line. I need to read everyone’s posts thoroughly: I will have a lot of questions, and if you can, try to answer them without too much delay. It may be late tonight or tomorrow before I began to post again. (It’s a three-day weekend in the United States: Monday is the observation of George Washington’s birthday, which we now call “President’s Day” because Lincoln’s birthday is also nearby. Washington’s birthday is February 22, 1732, in the Gregorian calendar (“New Style”), but England and its colonies were still using the Julian calendar when he was born on February 11, 1732, Old Style. Monday, of course, will be the 16th.)

Just a few quick points:

1. Tolkien made a lot of maps and sketches. We know the layout of Dunharrow, for instance, and we have two maps of Torech Ungol (Shelob’s Lair), one of which is quite detailed. Let’s please agree for now that Karen Fonsted’s map is the one we will use for better or worse, and give her the benefit of the doubt, hoping that she saw one of Tolkien’s sketch-maps for Bree. At least she had access to the archives and help from the archivists, and we do not.
2. DPR, I used your link to check sunset for London for September 29, 1941. It is 5:44 PM, one minute off this year’s number. I think we’re good to go from there. If anyone cares to check to see how far off our (real) September 29 is from the Shire Reckoning September 29, there is a calendar for the purpose at Encyclopedia of Arda, and there may be others on the web, too. We can also work from the autumn equinox, if anyone cares to do that: line up the dates over and under one another for the Shire Reckoning and the Gregorian calendar. The Appendices to RotK have the Shire Reckoning calendar in them, along with the dates of the equinoxes.
3. Große Wirtsstube is “big pub room” auf Deutsch. Yes, that’s the Common room. Without the Inn, we would simply call it a “tavern”, and our German friends would call it a Wirtshaus, which translates as “public house”, or “pub” for short.
4. 15-minute intervals give us 4 blocks per hour, 12-minute intervals give us 5 blocks per hour, and 10-minute intervals give us 6 blocks per hour. We need to keep the intervals even as best we can. In gaming, like D&D, these blocks are called “turns”. I played AD&D as the dungeon master for a seven-year long campaign in college and afterwards, and I am accustomed to managing them: but we need to keep them even. If we start breaking down into smaller time units, unless there is individual combat underway (as on Weathertop), experience suggests that boredom and bickering soon follow. The fewer turns per hour, the better.
5. The most important thing: if your suggestion is not immediately incorporated, or left out, please don’t get angry and go away! Let’s all work through what we have: this is going to take some time. I think we have about 90% of the problem done. In problems like this, the last 10% is almost always the hardest.

Now I’m going to digest all this a bit. PLEASE KEEP POSTING! Find as many problems and issues as you can! Let’s do this together.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Let’s please agree for now that Karen Fonsted’s map is the one we will use for better or worse, and give her the benefit of the doubt, hoping that she saw one of Tolkien’s sketch-maps for Bree.

I was afraid you were going to say that. I agree this is probably what has to be done, but I think we will probably run into timing issues after Ferny, the Southerner, the Nazgul, and Merry go for that long stroll south (as evidenced already by Gordis's timeline suggestions).

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Gordis

If dawn is 6.30, then sunrise would be at seven. But maybe they needed an hour to get dressed for breakfast?

Maybe Tolkien forgot to adjust for daylight savings time, too.
More likely, he didn't check sunrise times as meticulously as we're doing.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Maybe Tolkien forgot to adjust for daylight savings time, too.
More likely, he didn't check sunrise times as meticulously as we're doing.

Actually Tolkien had BST not DST, which amounts much to the same.

Originally Posted by Wiki

British Summer Time or BST is the civil time during the summer months in the United Kingdom during which the clocks are advanced from Greenwich mean time by one hour. It was first established by the Summer Time Act of 1916, was amended by subsequent acts and is now defined by the Summer Time Order of 2002 which laid down that it would be

...the period beginning at one o'clock, Greenwich mean time, in the morning of the last Sunday in March and ending at one o'clock, Greenwich mean time, in the morning of the last Sunday in October.

—The Summer Time Order 2002[1]

[edit] Double summer time BST was introduced during World War I as an energy-saving measure. During World War II, a further hour was added to establish British Double Summer Time or BSDT.[2]

Well, as BST had been introduced as early as 1916, I believe Tolkien may have taken it for granted, and his ME does have BST or MST (Middle-Earth Summer Time).
We can speculate it was introduced by Sauron during Dark years (seems like his kind of regulation) and then everyone has become used to it.

See also this quote:

Frodo: 'I shan't be doing anything of the sort again, Mr. Butterbur, I promise you. And now I think I'll be getting to bed. We shall be making an early start. Will you see that our ponies are ready by eight o'clock?'

If sunrise is at six, then how on ME can this be called "an early start"? Much more likely sunrise was at seven.

About Bree. Fonstad's map seems to have at least one noticeable deviation from the LOTR description. Fonstad has the third Gate, North Gate, which Bree didn't have, IMO:

The village of Bree had some hundred stone houses of the Big Folk, mostly above the Road, nestling on the hillside with windows looking west. On that side, running in more than half a circle from the hill and back to it, there was a deep dike with a thick hedge on the inner side. Over this the Road crossed by a causeway; but where it pierced the hedge it was barred by a great gate. There was another gate in the southern corner where the Road ran out of the village. The gates were closed at nightfall; but just inside them were small lodges for the gatekeepers.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But another implication is that the Southerner only just made contact with Ferny himself (maybe they knew each other previously, maybe not). What about the nazgul H and I who passed through Bree on Sept 26? The Dunlending was not yet come. Did the nazgul make acquaintance with Ferny all on their own? Did they "chance" upon him or did they get the info about him from the Dunlending during his questioning on the road south of Bree? Did Harry Goatleaf sent them to Ferny? Anyway there is a possibility that on Sept 26 the nazgul didn’t meet Ferny at all, so maybe they didn’t go straight to Ferny’s house on Sept. 29. Perhaps they only got there following the Isengarder on his way out of the Inn.

HI go on through Bree asking for news, to make sure 'Baggins' has not escaped and got ahead. They get in touch with Bill Ferney.- HOME 7, p.71 "Date was corected to Sept 26, CT" note 9

So I guess it is settled. Ferny was hired by the nazgul already on Sept.26.

[Alcuin]

Just reread “Prancing Pony” and “Strider”.

As a general note on the presence of the Black Rider outside the Inn.

• Before the accident, when Frodo was standing on the table, the text says,
  

  …unaccountably the desire came on him to slip [the Ring] on and vanish out the of the silly situation. It seemed to him, somehow, as if the suggestion came to him from outside, from someone or something in the room.

• After the accident, in nearly the same words.
  

  …he wondered if the Ring itself had not played him a trick; perhaps it had revealed itself to some wish or command that was felt in the room.

If there is any allegory in The Lord of the Rings, it is the Rings of Power as Machines. Tolkien actually discusses the One Ring as Machine. Again, my son’s idea that the Black Rider across the Road “pinged” the Ring the way we might ping Entmoot:

ringwraith>ping Entmoot.com

Pinging Entmoot.com [204.11.53.229] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 204.11.53.229: bytes=32 time=32ms TTL=54
Reply from 204.11.53.229: bytes=32 time=31ms TTL=54
Reply from 204.11.53.229: bytes=32 time=31ms TTL=54
Reply from 204.11.53.229: bytes=32 time=31ms TTL=54

Ping statistics for 204.11.53.229:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 31ms, Maximum = 32ms, Average = 31ms

ringwraith>

When I ping Entmoot, I have no rights and no privileges. If Entmoot is down, or Ben has disabled the ping response, nothing will happen; otherwise, Entmoot will say, “I’m here, I’m here, I’m here.” That’s what the Ring has done, except for the One Ring to say, “I’m here,” it needed to show itself by having Frodo put it on. We can discuss whether it is purely machine or sentient or semi- sentient elsewhere: but I think that’s the Nazgûl standing across the Road. He has no rights, and no control: but like ping, asking the One Ring if it’s there might be a pretty low-level request, and one with which Sauron would surely have equipped his Nine Bogeymen if at all possible: otherwise, they might not find it at all. And the Ringwraith in the Road still didn’t find it on his own (Khamûl or the Witch-king would have, I think): he had to be told by the Isengarder what happened, or so I gather from the “Hunt for the Ring” manuscript citations in RC.

-|-

I read all the dialogue of Strider and the hobbits out loud. I timed myself. I have read The Lord of the Rings aloud to my children at least four times. I’m not a professional actor, but I think I read it neither too quickly not too slowly. I did not account for movement, but for breathing, how long it took to speak the words, and for obvious (short) pauses.

The dialogue is interrupted by Butterbur’s entry into the parlor with Gandalf’s overdue letter. (More about this at another time, but in fact, with Gandalf’s letter delivered at just this moment with Aragorn in the room, and Frodo alarmed and in distress, it could not have come at a better moment: and so Butterbur’s bad memory might be seen as a blessing.) It took me 12 minutes to read the first half of the dialogue, and that should properly be accompanied by some action (closing the door, building the fire): I think 15 minutes is quite fair. At this point, as Gordis has already pointed out, Butterbur sends Nob to look for Merry.

The second half of the dialogue involves Frodo reading the letter and passing it to Sam and Pippin, and Aragorn mock-threatening the hobbits to win their trust (mock-threatening because he isn’t really threatening: i.e., he is no threat, because he could take the Ring). This took me a full 15 minutes, and then Merry bangs open the door, runs in the room, and Nob follows.

I haven’t yet moved Ferny, the Isengarder, and Harry “the Heisenberg” Gatekeeper to leave just after Frodo’s accident in the rough time-line: that’s tomorrow’s task. (Yes, I know I’m putting off until tomorrow what I could do tonight, but it’s almost 4 AM here.) Look back at the post or the website. I think that Aragorn’s discussion with the hobbits, Butterbur’s entry into the room, and Nob’s departure are all in about the correct timeframe, except that Butterbur’s sending Nob needs to move to the next “turn”.

Now this creates a problem. Some of you have noticed that Fonstad has marked a side-door to the Inn through which Merry might have passed. The door isn’t mentioned in the text, nor in the drafts, as far as I can tell: the only way she would know that is that

• she made it up herself,
• it’s in a draft to which we haven’t access, or
• it’s in a sketch of the Inn we haven’t elsewhere seen.

Now, I urged that we assume that Fonstad made her sketch of Bree based upon a sketch by Tolkien that is not yet published. If we make that assumption, I think we are compelled to extend it to the notion that there is also a side-door to the Inn; and after all, there is no mention of Merry passing through the Commons room (the ole’ Große Wirtsstube), so it seems a fair bet. Moreover, the hobbits heard the door bang when Merry and Nob came running back, with Merry outrunning Nob: the front door (under the arch, the one the hobbits first entered when they met Butterbur) clearly led into the Commons room, just as Fonstad’s floorplan suggests. So, although I don’t like it very much (it isn’t in the published text, and there isn’t a published Tolkien sketch of the Inn), I guess I have to admit that it sure looks as if Fonstad is correct, and there is a side door.

This brings us to another point. The second half of the dialogue, where Frodo reads Gandalf’s letter, has some “acting” or movement for which I did not account: for instance, Frodo examines the letter and its seal very carefully, and Aragorn draws the broken Narsil from its sheath, just to name two. These will extend the length of time this “turn” would last in “real life”; but of course, we’re ignoring extensions and contractions of “turns” for this exercise. (Or the DM goes batty.) Let’s assume a best-case scenario, that Nob, who’s been sent to put hot water in the bedrooms, is standing right outside the door when Butterbur steps out at the end of the last turn. According to Fonstad’s map, the fastest way out is not though the north-facing side door, but out the main door. Nob might step out the side door if it meant that he could look up at the North-Gate (not mentioned in the text, and surely little used it at all) and the West-Gate. Hammond and Scull have kindly provided us with the moons Tolkien used (RC, “Chronologies, Calendars and Moon” in the preliminaries before the novel itself begins), and September 29 was two days past the first quarter. Now, in “Knife in the Dark”, the moon is up early; but we have a little more than quarter-moon light, and Nob with a lamp.

Can Nob see a thousand feet into the night with half-moon light and a light? And if he can, how long did it take him (Nob’s a hobbit, remember) to get close enough to Ferny’s house to see whoever it was (Frick and Frack, I say) lifting Merry and yell so that they drop him? After all that. Merry still has to run home and bang the door.

The time problem is here: Unless the second half of the dialogue between Strider and the hobbits (after Butterbur delivers Gandalf’s letter and then leaves) takes more than 15 minutes – more like 30 minutes, but certainly more than 15! – I think we might have found an error. It could be Tolkien’s error if he has too much happening too fast; or it could be Fonstad’s error, she’s made Bree too big.

Or it could be that Fonstad has correctly drawn Bree from a Tolkien sketch, but Tolkien sketched Bree too long from east to west. I’m in favor of this last: Tolkien used a sketch, Fonstad saw it, but the sketch makes Bree to “wide” longitudinally, from east to west. It isn’t a half-mile or a mile to Ferny’s house: it’s a much shorter distance. I think that will satisfy Olmer and CAB, and I think it is probably very close to the truth.

-|-

After Merry enters the room, Strider himself remarks that

“The Riders must have left their hoses outside, and passed back through the South-gate in secret. They will know all the news now, for they have visited Bill Ferny; and probably that Southerner was a spy as well.”

Tolkien reminds us in his letters and interviews that his characters are not omniscient, and he goes to pains to be sure of it; but that’s what Gordis thinks, too, and she actually has benefit of “The Hunt for the Ring”, which Aragorn could not have obtained without breaking Sauron’s version of Enigma or Purple.

-|-

I’ll make two changes tomorrow:

1. I’ll move Bill Ferny and the Isengarder leaving the Inn up one turn,
2. I’ll move Nob’s going out to look for Merry back one turn.

Are there any other changes I need to make?

-|-

How shall we interpret the very “busy” turn with Gandalf’s letter, Nob’s search for Merry, and Merry’s run back to the Inn? Can all that really in 15 (or 20) minutes, or is this more like two turns?

And did Fonstad (and presumably Tolkien before her) sketch Bree too wide?

Everyone please let me know what you think!

And did I leave anything out from anyone?

-|-

Originally Posted by Gordis

More likely, he didn't check sunrise times as meticulously as we're doing.
Actually Tolkien had BST not DST, which amounts much to the same.

I think he used an almanac. Hammond and Scull reference Whitaker’s Almamack for 1942.

I really don’t like daylight savings time. Ben Franklin was right: it’s a joke. And it’s fouling up my rough time-line.

[Gordis]

Alcuin,

I like the ping idea, and everything you say in this relation seems correct.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I read all the dialogue of Strider and the hobbits out loud. I timed myself.
It took me 12 minutes to read the first half of the dialogue, and that should properly be accompanied by some action (closing the door, building the fire): I think 15 minutes is quite fair. At this point, as Gordis has already pointed out, Butterbur sends Nob to look for Merry.

The second half of the dialogue involves Frodo reading the letter and passing it to Sam and Pippin, and Aragorn mock-threatening the hobbits to win their trust (mock-threatening because he isn’t really threatening: i.e., he is no threat, because he could take the Ring). This took me a full 15 minutes, and then Merry bangs open the door, runs in the room, and Nob follows.

I got the same times, though I stopped reading it aloud after my son asked me if I have gone crazy.
I propose we should base our timeline on these canonic times, not on distances on Fonstad's uncanonic map, (or, alternatively, make two versions of the timeline - one according to the text only)

I think Fonstad had access to some Tolkien sketches for Bree, but likely those were without scalebars. She added scalebars, but got it wrong. Well it happens, she was an awesome map-maker regardless.

Also think on it: what was the point for sending Nob with a lantern to look for Merry in such a HUGE town as Bree seems to be: with main road a mile long, another two miles long etc? Most likely search parties would be organized, Strider would have gone etc. Tolkien calls Bree "little village".

I think that Aragorn’s discussion with the hobbits, Butterbur’s entry into the room, and Nob’s departure are all in about the correct timeframe, except that Butterbur’s sending Nob needs to move to the next “turn”.

I agree.

Now, I urged that we assume that Fonstad made her sketch of Bree based upon a sketch by Tolkien that is not yet published. If we make that assumption, I think we are compelled to extend it to the notion that there is also a side-door to the Inn; and after all, there is no mention of Merry passing through the Commons room (the ole’ Große Wirtsstube), so it seems a fair bet. Moreover, the hobbits heard the door bang when Merry and Nob came running back, with Merry outrunning Nob: the front door (under the arch, the one the hobbits first entered when they met Butterbur) clearly led into the Commons room, just as Fonstad’s floorplan suggests. So, although I don’t like it very much (it isn’t in the published text, and there isn’t a published Tolkien sketch of the Inn), I guess I have to admit that it sure looks as if Fonstad is correct, and there is a side door.

There should be: Nob said he was going to watch the DOORS (plural).

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Can Nob see a thousand feet into the night with half-moon light and a light? And if he can, how long did it take him (Nob’s a hobbit, remember) to get close enough to Ferny’s house to see whoever it was (Frick and Frack, I say) lifting Merry and yell so that they drop him? After all that. Merry still has to run home and bang the door.

He said he went down to the west gate, then up to the South-Gate. As for the overall time of Nob's trip, I think we should stick to about 20 min, the length of the second part of the conversation in the parlor. So under 5 min to go to the West gate and return, and a bit over 15 min to go to the South Gate and return (running back).

The time problem is here: Unless the second half of the dialogue between Strider and the hobbits (after Butterbur delivers Gandalf’s letter and then leaves) takes more than 15 minutes – more like 30 minutes, but certainly more than 15! – I think we might have found an error. It could be Tolkien’s error if he has too much happening too fast; or it could be Fonstad’s error, she’s made Bree too big.

Yes, I believe we have to blame Fonstad's scalebar.

I’ll make two changes tomorrow:

1. I’ll move Bill Ferny and the Isengarder leaving the Inn up one turn,
2. I’ll move Nob’s going out to look for Merry back one turn.

Are there any other changes I need to make?

I advise to shorten the distances and the corresponding travel times. 7 min for a fast Big Man to go from Pony to the South Gate, about 10 min. for a hobbit.

How shall we interpret the very “busy” turn with Gandalf’s letter, Nob’s search for Merry, and Merry’s run back to the Inn? Can all that really in 15 (or 20) minutes, or is this more like two turns?

It is not a game with turns, Alcuin. I advise to make as many time-intervals as needed, when the action is moving fast.

I think he used an almanac. Hammond and Scull reference Whitaker’s Almamack for 1942.

I really don’t like daylight savings time. Ben Franklin was right: it’s a joke. And it’s fouling up my rough time-line.

I advise you to forget the existence of DST as Tolkien himself probably did. Let the sunrise be at 7, as it fits the text (see my 2 quotes given previously). The sunrise at 6 doesn't fit the text. Change nothing.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I propose we should base our timeline on these canonic times, not on distances on Fonstad's uncanonic map

I agree.

1. The times we get using the map will not work with those we get from the text. Either the map or the text is flawed. I vote for the map.

2. As Gordis points out, the map is uncanonic.

3. So far as I can tell, we don't need the map. It is only being used to (hopefully) backup and visualize what we get from the text.

4. Altering the map doesn’t seem to be a good option to me. What will we alter next?

5. We don't know who made the scaling mistake (assuming that is the only mistake on the map, see Gordis's earlier quote regarding an extra gate), Tolkien or Fonstad.

6. I think you would be better served using your timeline to demonstrate that the map is flawed. Considering that it is supposed to be a small town/village, Bree as depicted on the map appears too large. Using other information, your timeline proves it.

7. It seems, Alcuin, that your main purpose here is to show how masterfully Tolkien put this scene together. You would be hurting your own cause by including a map that makes the times gathered from the text (nearly) impossible. And this isn't necessary. Tolkien didn't draw this map.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also think on it: what was the point for sending Nob with a lantern to look for Merry in such a HUGE town as Bree seems to be: with main road a mile long, another two miles long etc? Most likely search parties would be organized, Strider would have gone etc. Tolkien calls Bree "little village".

Another good point. The map simply does not fit the text.


Edit: Alcuin, you mentioned that Bree in the map may have been too "wide". But even if it was "narrower", the road through this (supposedly) small and (definitely) hedged/diked town still would have exceeded a mile. I think the simpler and more likely explanation is that the scale is wrong. It would seem that Gordis thinks so too.

If you really want to utilize the map, maybe we can do it this way: Complete the timeline using the text, dusk times, sunset times, "acting out scene" times, etc. Then we can go back and try to find a range of scales that would make the map fit the timeline (I am guessing the scale should be about 1/3 of what it is now, or even less). Once this is done, perhaps we could make some guesses as to what mistake lead to the scale problem.

[Gordis]

I have a new finding to share.
I was going to write a post telling that none of Tolkien's sketches of maps have scalebars. I was checking HOME - and what did I find?

Tolkien's own map of Bree! Home VI (The Return of the Shadow) p.335
I have scanned it for you.

There was no scalebar, note - there was the whole page reproduced, I have cut the empty edges.

The layout is pretty much like Fonstad's, but the West gate is further away from the Pony - in Tolkien's version the Pony is only a little bit further from the South Gate than it is from the West Gate.

Ah, yes, the third, North Gate is present in the map (with a small lane leading to it), though there is no mention of it in the final text. I think Tolkien later rejected the idea (what is the use of a special Gate leading to deserted Greenway in the direction of the long-dead Fornost?).

But the North Gate had been of importance in the rejected drafts: it was this gate Gandalf used to slip out of Bree quietly (HOME 6, p.347.)


Anyway, the map fits with what we read in LOTR in all other respects.

The hobbits rode on up a gentle slope, passing a few detached houses, and drew up outside the inn.

It was 1-2 houses in the draft, corrected to "a few" And indeed on the map there are 6 houses, and they are detached. Likely previously there were much more houses in Bree.
Tis quote also leaves the impression that it was fairly close from the Gate to the Pony, so the same must apply to the southern side as well.

Also in a rejected version, Harry at the West Gate let the nazgul pass then

Harry heard the sound of hoofs going off towards the village. He unlocked the door stealthily, and then crept out, and peered up the road. It was too foggy and already too dark to see much. But he heard the hoofs halt at the bend of the Road by the inn.-Home 6 347 - 8

Again it must be close from the Gate to the Pony.

Also have another look on the map: the distance from the Crossroads beyond the West Gate to the gate is 2/3 of the distance Gate-Pony. Here is a passage from HOME 7, p.74

The rain that swept over the Forest and the Downs on Tuesday was still falling long and grey on Bree when evening came. The lights were just being lit in Tom's house, when the noise of horses approaching came down the Road from the west. Harry Goatleaf the gatekeeper [...] went out, grumbling at the rain, and looking up the Road he thought he saw dark figures approaching swiftly, three or maybe four. But suddenly they turned left at the Cross Roads just beyond the gate, and went off southwards and down the Greenway

He was able to see crossroads in the dusk while it was raining: it was indeed "just beyond the Gate"

I think all of this evidence combined proves that all the mess comes from the wrong scale bar on Fonstad's map.

About the additional entrance to the Inn:

Gandalf took his leave of the landlord at a side-door. Home 6, p. 346

[CAB]

Great finds, Gordis.

Fonstad's map is clearly shown to be inaccurate. Wherever the scale may have come from (couldn't be Tolkien's map), it is obviously incorrect. The quotes prove that Bree was far more compact than what is seen on Fonstad's map. They show that the distance between the West Gate and crossroads is much less than the 1/4 mile on Fonstad's map. Tolkien's own map shows that even Bree's proportions were misrepresented.

Tolkien's map may not be as pretty, but surely it takes precedence. We are examining his work here, not Fonstad's. What do you say, Alcuin? Are we switching maps?

One more time….Great finds, Gordis. Not that I have anything against Ms. Fonstad, but that map has really been bugging me.

[Alcuin]

The map is only for the purpose of placement and relative distance. If we assume that the scale is off, then the relative distances remain unchanged. I suspect that Fonstad actually saw a Tolkien sketch, but one without scale. If we let go the scale, the problem goes away.

Originally Posted by Gordis

It is not a game with turns, Alcuin. I advise to make as many time-intervals as needed, when the action is moving fast.

We’re making estimates. We can’t make a real time-line, because we don’t know exactly what Tolkien had in mind. Even if we did, we might only uncover an error, however unlikely that would seem in this instance.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I advise you to forget the existence of DST as Tolkien himself probably did. Let the sunrise be at 7, as it fits the text (see my 2 quotes given previously). The sunrise at 6 doesn't fit the text. Change nothing.

The rough time-line is based upon GMT. If we move to BST, then everything gets pushed back one hour, because dusk is now 7:15 instead of 6:15, and Strider is barricading the room around midnight instead of 11. It is an Excel spreadsheet, and easy to change, but we need to footnote that noon is at 1 PM because Tolkien was unconsciously using BST. And if he is using BST, then he was almost certainly using an almanac for his times for sunrise, sunset, and dusk!

Originally Posted by Gordis

Tolkien's own map of Bree! Home VI (The Return of the Shadow) p.335

I reread Return of the Shadow when I first began this thread. How did I miss that? Thank you! It does have different relative scaling from Fonstad’s map. On Tolkien’s map, the Inn is nearly equidistant from the West Gate, the South Gate, and the disused North Gate. In the days of the High Kings at Annúminas and Fornost, I expect the North Gate was a busily-traveled convenience: using it meant that you did not have to exit through the West Gate and then turn north.

In the final version, there are about 100 houses of the Big Folk in Bree, and about as many Little Folk. That makes the population around 1200–2000, I expect.

Originally Posted by CAB

Are we switching maps?

Yes, I think we must use Tolkien’s sketch-map: it fits the rough time-line – and the published text! – much better.

[Alcuin]

I’ve started to update the rough time-line.

Using Tolkien’s rough sketch from Return of the Shadow instead of Fonstad’s map of Bree makes a tremendous difference. It is about as far to the South Gate from the Prancing Pony as it is the West Gate.

Butterbur still sends Nob after Merry in the same time-block as before, not the next time-block. Gordis, you and I both read those passages aloud, and as best I can determine, Butterbur leaves the scene and sends Nob on his search about half-way through that time-block.

Ferny and his visitor from Isengard now reach Ferny’s house before Merry and the Black Rider. This suggests that Ferny and the Isengarder pass the Black Rider when they leave the Inn. The Black Rider stays there, and Merry returns to find him still standing across the Road from the Inn. Somehow, that doesn’t feel quite right to me: was there a second Black Rider outside, too, that walked home with them? They passed the Nazgûl, and he didn’t join them? They didn’t see him? I’m not certain we have assessed the order of events correctly here:

• The Black Rider is outside the Inn “calling” to the Ring, and it responds by seeking a means for Frodo to put it on.
• Ferny and the Isengarder leave the Inn. They have to pass the Black Rider. Does the Isengarder tell the Black Rider what happened at this point, or later?
• Merry returns from his walk. The Black Rider is still across the street from the Inn. He sees Merry, and Merry follows him.

I can’t help but notice that, had the Commons room emptied any faster, lots of Bree-folk would have found this weird, scary guy standing across the road from their favorite watering-hole.

Now, here’s the biggie:

The Dread Pirate Roberts has discovered that Tolkien appears to be using British Summer Time (Daylight Savings Time) for his time for sunrise the following morning. Are we using standard time, which the sun at its zenith at noon, or daylight savings time, as Tolkien appears to have, with the sun at its zenith at 1 o’clock?

Without using daylight savings time, with the sun at its zenith at noon (standard time), here is the rough time-line as it stands right now:

I think we’re going to be forced to use BST (daylight savings time) in order to account for the all the things that happen the next morning. As it is, using standard time, Frodo’s accident happens around a quarter of ten; using daylight savings time, it will happen at a quarter of eleven. (Either of which would further help explain Butterbur’s lack of irritation: not only was he looking forward to hearing the “accident” discussed in his public room for months to come, it was also near the end of the evening for most of his patrons.)