Who Really Killed the Witch King in ROTK??

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by frodomerryandaragornrock

here's another supporter of my case that i found on another lotr website (not like there'e any of those, right??) :http://www.barrowdowns.com/articles_...rdofnazgul.php

THANX every1!!!

Good article, but I don't beleive the central premise: that anyone on the field could have killed the W-K, once Merry got in his admittedly utterly vital stab. Glorfindel's prophecy was "“Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.” I suppose that the poster is interpreting "fall" literally, and the W-K indeed stumbles after Merry's hit, but I feel that in the context and language used, "fall" means being killed. Tolkien was, of course familiar with the Delphic tradition of oracles that say a thing that could mean different things, and this was one he even referred to: Gandalf saying: "Of course, absurdly simple, like most riddles..." I also note that this conceit (if I may call it so) was continued from the earliest version of the tale.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

i must say also that though sometimes we men DO think Women come from another planet sometimes...

*tries to hide her luggage tags*

Originally Posted by Attalus

How's this?

Looks good! Thanks!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Good article, but I don't beleive the central premise: that anyone on the field could have killed the W-K, once Merry got in his admittedly utterly vital stab. Glorfindel's prophecy was "“Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.”

I think we are back to the "could" and "would" argument. Another nice oldie.

Could a man kill the WK, given the opportunity? Sure he could - but he wouldn't get this opportunity.

Could a woman and a hobbit with a Barrow-blade kill the WK back in TA 1975? Yes they could - exactly in the same manner as in TA 3019. But would they be given the chance? No, as the prophecy said "Far off is his doom". Thus the WK basically had nothing to fear for a very long time after the prophesy had been made: men, women, Elves, Dwarves, falling meteorites, drunken orcs, hungry fellbeasts, angry Sauron - there was nothing that would bring about his doom before the time was ripe.

[Alcuin]

To say that anyone could have killed the Witch-king once Merry had stabbed him with the barrow-blade misses the point of prophecy. The point is not that “anyone could have done it”: the point is that Glorfindel, taken “in the Spirit” – seeing all the lines of action across time in one instant, as if all the veils of time were suddenly swept aside for him for that passing moment – foresaw that the Lord of the Nazgûl, a fierce and terrifying enemy that had not only collapsed the important state of Arnor and nearly annihilated all the northern Dúnedain, but then escaped! that this seemingly unconquerable opponent would indeed fall, but not by the “hand of man.”

You’re also looking at this from the point of view of the “good guys.” Think about it for a moment from the point of view of the “bad guys.” The Witch-king must have been emboldened in attack: after all, he was, in his own mind, invulnerable. He is much like Macbeth in Act 5, Scene 7 :

What's he
That was not born of woman? Such a one
Am I to fear, or none.

Consequently in the final act,

MACBETH

Thou losest labour:
As easy mayst thou the intrenchant air
With thy keen sword impress as make me bleed:
Let fall thy blade on vulnerable crests;
I bear a charmed life, which must not yield,
To one of woman born.

MACDUFF

Despair thy charm;
And let the angel whom thou still hast served
Tell thee, Macduff was from his mother's womb
Untimely ripp'd.

MACBETH

Accursed be that tongue that tells me so,
For it hath cow'd my better part of man!
And be these juggling fiends no more believed,
That palter with us in a double sense;
That keep the word of promise to our ear,
And break it to our hope. I'll not fight with thee.

I believe the parallels between the Witch-king and Macbeth have been drawn before, particularly concerning the prophecy. But in both cases, the prophecy gives the villain hope of immortality, or in fail of that, endless longevity. One striking difference is that Macbeth declines at first to fight Macduff, relenting only reluctantly when Macduff demands his abject surrender.

The Witch-king, on the other hand, after a brief internal debate, took the other tack. He assaulted Éowyn with all his might, “with a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom”; if not for Merry, he would have killed her, and from the description of the fight, “his eyes glittered,” he believed he had won.

But why did he ignore Merry? He had seen the hobbits at Weathertop, and he knew how at least one had then been armed: all the Nazgûl save he had hung back when Frodo drew his barrow-blade there. No, his focus, his fury, his face were set against Éowyn. Why? Because of the Prophecy of the North. Éowyn challenged him:

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.

Besides the strong similarities in what Éowyn and Macduff tell their respective nemeses, Éowyn’s speech focuses all the Witch-king’s attention, all his thought, on her. Without that, it would have been more difficult – perhaps impossible – for Merry to approach him stealthily from behind and strike that all-important blow.

The Witch-king, like Macbeth, relied upon prophecy for his inspiration and hope. (The differences in their effects might be explained this way: Macbeth’s prophecy was spoken by fiends, and so when revealed to cheat his hope, left him depressed; while the Witch-king’s was spoken by something like unto a saint and so invigorated him in the end, even though it spoke of – and presaged – his doom.) Without the Prophecy of the North, the Witch-king would likely have been more wary, and certainly less intimidated by Éowyn! But importantly, he would have been less likely to ignore Merry. Each prophecy worked as a trap for the villain.

Could “anyone” have struck the Witch-king after Merry cut him? Perhaps: but that was not the prophecy, and it without the prophecy, the Witch-king might not have been killed at all.

[Gordis]

Great post, Alcuin. I have seen people make parallels with Macbeth many times, but haven't seen "Macbeth" quoted. Very interesting.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The Witch-king, on the other hand, after a brief internal debate, took the other tack. He assaulted Éowyn with all his might, “with a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom”; if not for Merry, he would have killed her, and from the description of the fight, “his eyes glittered,” he believed he had won.

I am not sure that his internal debate led to the decision to fight Eowyn. It looks like while he was thinking, the Fell Beast got bored and attacked on its own:

The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt. [...] but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him, heeded [Merry] no more than a worm in the mud.
Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul. Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Éowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw.

Then, Eowyn killed the beast - and that was instrumental in killing the Nazgul Lord. That led to several things.

1.The WK got really upset and angry about the fate of his mount - a rarest species on the ME Red List of Threatened Animals. Note also that the Nazgul Lord personally helped Sauron in developing the Winged Beast project (RC).

2. The WK became stranded and couldn't retreat - at least with dignity

3. The sun was shining, Sauron's pall of Darkness had been blown away and thus the WK had difficulty seeing the World of Light. He couldn't use the sight of his mount as he did before, so he became practically blind.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

But why did he ignore Merry? He had seen the hobbits at Weathertop, and he knew how at least one had then been armed: all the Nazgûl save he had hung back when Frodo drew his barrow-blade there. No, his focus, his fury, his face were set against Éowyn. Why? Because of the Prophecy of the North.

Yes, plus what I said above. The WK was also very angry and practically blind. No wonder he didn't notice Merry.

[Attalus]

I have to say that this thread has discussed the question more intelligently and with less heat than I have ever seen done. The "losing" poster often quite sth forum in disgust. Great job, everyone.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Entmoot has to be the friendliest board I've found. Not the place to come for a good knock-down, drag-out but certainly a nice place for good, well thought out opinions.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The WK was also very angry and practically blind. No wonder he didn't notice Merry.

He could see Éowyn well enough to attack her without any trouble.

I had not before considered, though, that to him, the dawning light might have caused a dimming to his vision. Aragorn said that the noonday sun obscured their vision: he wasn’t blind just yet.

You might consider that, from the time the Rider rose up from the dead beast until the moment Eowyn decapitated him, probably took less than 2 minutes. It all happened very quickly.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

He could see Éowyn well enough to attack her without any trouble.

You sure he excatly "saw" her as a mortal man would? How could he miss the interesting curves of her body?

WK: "Stand not betwee... OWW! ... Well, I guess you may keep the old king, my beauty: he is as good as dead anyway... Say, care for a ride on my Fell Beast? I will bear thee away... beyond all darkness...."

Artwork by Allor (open at your peril):

[Gordis]

Well that was an attempt at humor. Now let us turn serious.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I had not before considered, though, that to him, the dawning light might have caused a dimming to his vision. Aragorn said that the noonday sun obscured their vision: he wasn’t blind just yet.

To be precise let us consider these quotes:

For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies, as we found at Bree. They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys, and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence - it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly. Also, the Ring draws them." - Aragorn, A Knife in the Dark, Fellowship of the Ring

"The Nazgûl found one another easily, since they were quickly aware of a companion presence, and could hear the cries over great distances. They could see one another also from far away, even by day, when to them a Nazgûl was the one clearly visible thing in a mist." * Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring), Reader's Companion by Hammond and Scull, p. 164

So by day (even without the sun) Nazgul sight was obscured by mist, and people appeared as pale shadows. At noon, with the sun out, the shapes disappeared entirely - the nazgul became blind. By day the nazgul used the sight of their horses and beasts - but for that they had to be riding, I believe. Also they could smell blood and feel (by some other senses) the presence of other beings.

Now let us follow the events of March 15 paying attention to light and darkness.

1. At the Gate. It is very dark: regular night + Sauron's Darkness. The WK prepares to fight Gandalf whom he sees clearly (because it is dark and probably because Gandalf the White shines in the Spirit World). Also the WK is mounted. Note: the WK has chosen a sword as his weapon, not a mace.

2. Theoden's attack on the Pelennor.

Fey Theoden seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed

3. The Witch-King (now astride his Fell Beast) flies to Theoden and produces a patch of darkness around him.

But lo! suddenly in the midst of the glory of the king his golden shield was dimmed. The new morning was blotted from the sky. Dark fell about him. Horses reared and screamed. Men cast from the saddle lay grovelling on the ground.
‘To me! To me!’ cried Théoden. ‘Up Eorlingas! Fear no darkness!’ But Snowmane wild with terror stood up on high, fighting with the air, and then with a great scream he crashed upon his side: a black dart had pierced him. The king fell beneath him. The great shadow descended like a falling cloud.

It seems that using his own darkness (or was it simply the shadow of the Fell Beast's wings?) and the Fell Beast's eyesight, the WK was able to use a crossbow and hit Theoden's horse. Not a high precision shot, if he was aiming at Theoden, but not bad either.

4. Now Eowyn faces the WK, still within the patch of darkness mentioned above.

There some paces from [Merry] sat the great beast, and all seemed dark about it, and above it loomed the Nazgûl Lord like a shadow of despair…. A great black mace he wielded.

Note the mace in WK's hand: this brutal weapon doesn't need such a high precision as a sword or darts - you can just strike at the spot where you feel/perceive/smell an enemy.

5. Now Eowyn kills the Fell Beast and the shadow vanishes with it.

Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise.

. Decidedly, it looks like the shadow was caused by the Fell Beast, not the WK himself. Hmm…

6. The final scene takes place in the sunlight. The wrathful WK attacks Eowyn with the mace. He never misses (unlike in the movie). One hit - and her arm is broken, shield shattered. Another stroke - and she would be dead. Then from behind, unheeded, crawls Merry with the Barrow-blade and strikes.
Note:.it is morning, not noon, but the sun is out. Both Eowyn and Merry would look like pale shadows to the WK - shadows in the mist. The help of the Fell Beasts eyesight is denied to him. Could he rely on smell? Hardly - there was the smell of blood all around on that battlefield, and also the Fell Beast stank foully. What about "other senses?" I guess they could help a lot in dark and loneliness, but again, hardly in the middle of a battlefield, with live/wounded/dead humans all around. Also, using "other senses" might have required concentration, and all the WK's attention was on Eowyn.

Actually it is the unique appearance of a lone nazgul fighting unmounted under the sun. They must have avoided such situations like a plague - it had to be perilous.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If while the beast was alive, the shadow cast was upon Eowyn, then the sunrise was behind him.

When WiKi faced Eowyn, the sun was facing her, making her difficult to see.
Likewise, had the WiKi turned to look behind him where Merry crept up, he would be looking into the sun, further obscuring his vision. He kept the sun to his back, along with Merry.

[Gordis]

Very likely, DPR.
The Rohirrim were coming from the North, while the WK likely kept his beast somewhere on the road to Osgiliath, if not in Osgiliath itself. Thus he was likely coming from the East when he attacked Theoden and indeed had sunrise behind his back.

Here is K.W. Fonstad's map:http://Pelennor

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You sure he excatly "saw" her as a mortal man would? How could he miss the interesting curves of her body?

WK: "Stand not betwee... OWW! ... Well, I guess you may keep the old king, my beauty: he is as good as dead anyway... Say, care for a ride on my Fell Beast? I will bear thee away... beyond all darkness...."

Artwork by Allor (open at your peril):

Ha, I like this one better, by Frank Frazetta:

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Ha, I like this one better, by Frank Frazetta:

I thought “Dernhelm” looked like all the other riders, just smaller in stature and build. “He” seems to have lost his breeches here.

The swordstroke looks correct, though. (I was always under the impression that Eowyn’s blow against the beast might have been a backhand stroke, but I’m not sure she could generate enough energy to sever the head that way.)

The art is certainly attractive!

-|-

[added later]


The medieval mace is a weapon for use against armor. A sword at the gate might have another meaning altogether.

Historically, the mace is an exceedingly primitive weapon in terms of its age and use. The Egyptians perfected it before the First Dynasty. Narmer, first Pharaoh of both Upper and Lower Egypt, is depicted using a highly sophisticated mace in the famed Narmer Palette, which is over 5,000 years old. (I.e., it’s a little older than the Witch-king was when he died.)

The medieval mace was generally spiked or flanged (perhaps the Witch-king’s mace was flanged) for the purpose of piercing armor. A peasant during the Middle Ages might have carried a pike or spear or axe or even a sword, but only a nobleman would carry a mace, because he would definitely have to attack an opponent through armor.

From a practical standpoint, the Witch-king’s choice of mace as weapon – along with the “dart,” which I agree must have come from a crossbow – was entirely practical: he would be using his mace against armored cavalrymen whom he would likely be attacking from above (i.e., hitting them on their armored noggins). In this case, the mace is also a far more aggressive choice: it indicates that he intends to strike the person, and not the mount.

He might well have had both sword and mace with him on the flying beast: again, the mace is the logical choice over the sword, which might or might not provide a cut on the first attack; but the mace broke Éowyn’s shieldarm right away. Even if the sword was his preferred weapon, the mace in this case was a better choice: he knew he might be dealing with the Prophecy of the North, and the mace was more likely to bring down his opponent faster and with less risk to himself, particularly if, as he likely judged it, that opponent was a woman much smaller than he.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Ha, I like this one better, by Frank Frazetta:

I like Frazetta too. Have you seen the next picture? Our shielmaiden turns into a damsel in distress.

Alcuin, you are right about the mace, but still, using it hardly needs as much precision as using a sword.
I am glad you agree about nazgul carrying crossbows - I have seen it argued to death that the dart was NOT from the nazgul, couldn't be etc...

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I have seen it argued to death that the dart was NOT from the nazgul, couldn't be etc...

Really? There do not seem to be any other Morgul forces round about at the time: they seem to have been at some distance. What would be the argument, that it was a stray arrow from some other part of the battlefield?

-|-

…Of course, if the Witch-king used a crossbow to put a quarrel into Snowmane, that would seem to indicate that he had a pretty good indication of Théoden’s position and movement across the field, particularly from a moving mount. Historically, firing a bow from horseback is a life-long pursuit: you start your training from childhood, like the Huns or the Mongols, or the Comanche or the Apache. I suppose firing a crossbow would be more like firing a pistol or rifle from horseback, but those are not easy, either.

[Gordis]

What would be the argument, that it was a stray arrow from some other part of the battlefield?

No, it was mostly "blind wraiths don't shoot arrows" and if they do, the arrows remain in the Spirit world and don't hit the physical bodies. Also, PJ image of the Fellbeasts lifting horses in their talons is imprinted in people's brains - in this case hitting a horse with a dart would be unnecessary.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

...PJ image of the Fellbeasts lifting horses in their talons is imprinted in people's brains...

Hm. Tolkien does say that the flying beast “settled upon the body of Snowmane, digging in its claws, stooping its long, naked neck.” But I think that lifting them up and about was a cinematic invention akin to the “speaking” or roaring Balrog, Aragorn’s using a sword at Weathertop, and Elrond’s bringing Andúril to Aragorn at Dunharrow because his scheme to send Arwen into the West had failed.

I would imagine that, if Khamûl was the most confused by sunlight, the Witch-king was probably the least bothered by it, and probably enjoyed the best “vision” of the normal world as we would understand it.

[Zilbanne]

Hi All! Does anybody remember Pippin's attitude when he and Gandalf first came to the main gate upon their arrival at Gondor? Pippin really hotly denies that he is a man, when Gandalf refers to him as one, to the gate guards. Pippin proclaims himself a Hobbit and not a man. Pippin also says he has not come of age yet in his own country. Though mentioning his adolescence here doesn't have much relevance to my point.

Adult male Hobbits are described as men in a kind of way, through descriptive simplicity and perhaps because of a lack of other pronouns in common speech . Yet they are not men are in the same way as Aragorn or Faramir are.

Anyway I'm but a fledgling here at Entmoot but I believe Merry was able to help Eowyn kill the Witch king only because he was not a man and had the special weapon chosen for him by T. Bobadil, in edition to his Hobbit status.

Though I can't prove it, I think say if Eomer used Merry's blade against the witch king, it may have wounded him but wouldn't have had the same deadly effect that Merry's will and arm had in using it.

_Zilbanne

[Jon S.]

Excellent observation, Zilbanne, whether correct or not (who knows for sure?).