Gildor Inglorion

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Anyway, back on topic: Gildor is innocent.

Of course he is innocent. He is insensitive, self-indulgent, calculating son of a...(whatever), but nevertheless he just couldn't provide an ecort to any lost in the wood hobbits.
First of it, he was smart enough not to meddle in the Game of Powerful, and if Gandalf himself saw fit to let the hobbits to travel alone, so let it be.
Second, he couldn't abandon his responsibilities as a coveyer of the funds and a protective convoy.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Second, he couldn't abandon his responsibilities as a coveyer of the funds and a protective convoy.

What funds?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

What funds?

Did you ever ask yourself at what expense was provided a transportation to Aman for all wishing to leave?
The cost of building the ship, an investment which will never bring any return?
From where would be coming materials and labor, since with each departing ship the population of Grey Havens is getting less in numbers?
The expenses on provision of food and accomodation for the laborers and the arriving prospective immigrants?
Cirdan was not that rich, is he was building his own ship for a LO-ONG time.
Therefore comes a suggestion that each ship has been paid in advance.

Now, what a gang of not so frail Noldor-warriors is doing by shuttling between Imladris and Mithlond?
Just taking a sight-seeing tours? I don't think so. They have to have a purpouse, and a very important one.
Can you come up with something important for the Elves besides singing songs? I think it has something to do with the leaving of ME.

So, we are coming back to the ticket to ride. It was not cheap, and I think the fare was being paid at the "last homely home", a temporary lodging for refugees waiting untill their ship will be ready.
When the needed amount has been collected, Gildor & Co would provide a protective escort for the passengers of the ready to leave ship, bringing along a payment for the next ship's building, and a list of future passengers.

I think that such importance of his mission would definitely inhibit him of any improvised ventures.

Well... This is my thoughts on this subject.
So, can somebody come up with other explanation of Gildor's strange behavior?

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Now, what a gang of not so frail Noldor-warriors is doing by shuttling between Imladris and Mithlond?
Just taking a sight-seeing tours? I don't think so. They have to have a purpouse, and a very important one.
Can you come up with something important for the Elves besides singing songs? I think it has something to do with the leaving of ME.

Who says they're 'shuttling'? I was under the impression that they were just kind of hanging around, enjoying Middle-earth before they had to leave...

So, can somebody come up with other explanation of Gildor's strange behavior?

It's time for him to leave, but he isn't ready yet, at heart.

[Jon S.]

I see no reason why important Elves or humans, 3rd Age or our age, can't take sight-seeing tours and sing.

P.S. Good to hear from you again, Olmer!

[Curufin]

It was also the last time they would see Middle-earth. It makes sense to me that they're wanting to see everything again, savour it, and hold it in their hearts so that they can remember it later. That's all I think they were doing.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Who says they're 'shuttling'? I was under the impression that they were just kind of hanging around, enjoying Middle-earth before they had to leave...

It's been said that they are occasionally travelling to Elostirion for the sole purpose of entertaining.
If it is a real reason, then his refusal to help hobbits has no pardon, and he is truly pitiless, egocentric, srew.

Originally Posted by Jon S

I see no reason why important Elves or humans, 3rd Age or our age, can't take sight-seeing tours and sing.

For 3000 years touring the same areas?
Give me a brake, Jon!! Even by elvish standarts the scenery would grow quite boring.

P.S. Good to hear from you again, Olmer!

Yeah, good to know that you, guys, are still here.
Too busy to participate in discussions, but will try my best to hang aroung.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

I see no reason why important Elves or humans, 3rd Age or our age, can't take sight-seeing tours and sing.

There was war going on, for Eru's sake! Dol Guldur army attacked the realm of Gildor's kingswoman Galadriel TRICE! And Gildor and his merry company of High Elves seemingly spent all this time hanging around Elostirion. When Bilbo was departing, they were still there at the very same spot and singing the very same song!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

When Bilbo was departing, they were still there at the very same spot ...

A prove that they were operating on some kind of schedule.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The strength of the Caliquendi's aura/glow depended on a few factors: emotianl arousal like when Fingolfin had his warface on and was rideing to Angband and was percieved by many to loke like a Maia or Vala; the native frea stregnth of the Elda and how he had enhanced it by his spiritual development; had long the Elda had been away from Aman with the fading also aplying to this aspect on the Noldor. Thus you see several aspect sto Glorfidnal and Fingolfin shinning through so brightly. I believe that they also have some ability to mange the apearance of the aura, at least through managing their emotional and meantal state, and I believe also directly to some extent.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Gordis

There was war going on, for Eru's sake!

Leave Eru out of this!

I'm guessing you don't know many real-life soldiers, Gordis. Soldiers receive leave even during times of war. In addition, they shuttle in and out of active deployment.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Curufin

It was also the last time they would see Middle-earth. It makes sense to me that they're wanting to see everything again, savour it, and hold it in their hearts so that they can remember it later. That's all I think they were doing.

Do we know they were on their farewell tour of M.E.? I don't recall anything specific on that.

[Coffeehouse]

In the end, I don't think this point has been mentioned in the debate, we should not look at what Gildor and his company of elves thought they could do, or ought to have done, but at what Gandalf intended.

My reasoning why Gildor and the elves were right to give the hobbits shelter, food and some advice and not "transport" the hobbits all the way to Rivendell, was that Gandalf obviously had not intended them to do the latter.

If Gildor and the elves were meant to help, the wizard must surely contacted Rivendell, or any wandering elves in the Shire area, to ask of them to help the hobbits. But he didn't He meant to let Frodo & his companions to go it alone to Bree, without being assisted, mile by mile, along the way.
Gandalf had a purpose, and I would believe it was a blend of wanting the ring to remain obscure, "unimportant" in a way, along its journey to Rivendell. He also wanted hobbits to take it along as they seemed near-impossible to lure into using the ring actively. Thus safest way of keeping it inactive was with Frodo.
Yet Gandalf did not expect Frodo to go it alone. He knew there'd be elves in the area, he knew there'd be Tom Bombadil, he knew there'd be Strider, etc. And he put faith into the hobbits, because he obviously he knew what they were capable of pulling off through the separate journey of Bilbo during the "The Hobbit".

In the end therefore, Gildor should not be held to blame for not doing anything more. I think he did just what he needed to.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Gildor didn't know his circumstances. And Gildor wasn't 'regular folk.' He was a fading remnant of a waning people who saw very little connection left to Middle-earth, and had absolutely no interest in hobbits. [...] And that's how Gildor saw the Hobbits. It wasn't his place to interfere, nor was it something he really cared about. He helped them out as he could, and then moved on. To turn the question around, what on earth was in it for him to join in the quest?
And what did Gildor know that was so important? There were some hobbits being followed by Nazgúl. Something important, to them at least. But not so much to Elves who were planning to leave soon (in Elvish terms, anyway).

As for Gildor as the epitomy of all that is good about elves, I don't see it that way at all.
What you describe above may be understandable, but it's a very poor showing in qualities. There are no perfect people, but only perfect intentions, and that is something that stands as a general weakness among many of the glorified elves of Noldor.
The lack of interest by some elves in the doings of other creatures is perhaps something that cannot be considered evil, or wrong, but it's certainly not good. It's not respectable, and it breeds apathy. The elves have long lives, great love of nature, a good eye for beauty, but sometimes for all the wisdom they seem to possess they also display a troubling lack of insight into other creature's cultures, an ignorant understanding of the complexity of other races. There's nothing wrong about it, but it certainly isn't respectable either.
And if someone deserves to be called noble they need to show the willingness and wisdom to go that extra mile even if no one requires them to. For all their lifetime, elves have as much to learn about living by Men, as Men have to learn about elvish deeds.
But that's my take on it

[Curufin]

As for Gildor as the epitomy of all that is good about elves, I don't see it that way at all.

I'm trying to find where I said that he was the epitome of all that is good about elves, and I sure as heck can't find it. If you can quote that to me, perhaps?

What you describe above may be understandable, but it's a very poor showing in qualities. There are no perfect people, but only perfect intentions, and that is something that stands as a general weakness among many of the glorified elves of Noldor.

I've never said Gildor was perfect, either. Quite the opposite, in fact.

The lack of interest by some elves in the doings of other creatures is perhaps something that cannot be considered evil, or wrong, but it's certainly not good. It's not respectable, and it breeds apathy.

I wouldn't say it 'breeds' apathy, but that it is apathy. And apathy is a normal response for someone who's planning to leave a place. Why should they care what's happening there?

The elves have long lives, great love of nature, a good eye for beauty, but sometimes for all the wisdom they seem to possess they also display a troubling lack of insight into other creature's cultures, an ignorant understanding of the complexity of other races. There's nothing wrong about it, but it certainly isn't respectable either.

I disagree. There's a difference between being 'ignorant' and being 'apathetic.' Gildor and co. understand the hobbits just fine. They just don't care.

And if someone deserves to be called noble they need to show the willingness and wisdom to go that extra mile even if no one requires them to. For all their lifetime, elves have as much to learn about living by Men, as Men have to learn about elvish deeds. But that's my take on it

Not mine. Everything of worth that the men know, they pretty much learned from elves.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Curufin

I'm trying to find where I said that he was the epitome of all that is good about elves, and I sure as heck can't find it. If you can quote that to me, perhaps?

Maybe you didn't look good enough
Here it is:

Originally Posted by Curufin

See, I was madly in love with him for a long time. I really like the guy. He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be.

I assume the epitome of what an Elf should be is meant positively

Originally Posted by Curufin

I've never said Gildor was perfect, either. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I didn't say you did

Originally Posted by Curufin

I wouldn't say it 'breeds' apathy, but that it is apathy. And apathy is a normal response for someone who's planning to leave a place. Why should they care what's happening there?

Let's not be picky. If it is apathy it also breeds more apathy.

Originally Posted by Curufin

I disagree. There's a difference between being 'ignorant' and being 'apathetic.' Gildor and co. understand the hobbits just fine. They just don't care.

That would be believable if Elves spent alot of times with hobbits. Which they don't.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Not mine. Everything of worth that the men know, they pretty much learned from elves.

Like any civilization that learns from the previous one. But Men are not taught how to be Men. The passion with which Men live every day of their life is something they have not been taught. That passion is about as worthy as it gets. And we know that from personal experience don't we all! Cause your not an elf right Curufin...

[Curufin]

I assume the epitome of what an Elf should be is meant positively

That's not what that means at all.

The epitome of what an elf should be does NOT equal 'the epitome of all that is good' in an elf.

If I was going to say what the epitome of 'all that was good' in an elf was, I'd certainly choose Finrod, not Gildor.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Curufin

That's not what that means at all.

The epitome of what an elf should be does NOT equal 'the epitome of all that is good' in an elf.

If I was going to say what the epitome of 'all that was good' in an elf was, I'd certainly choose Finrod, not Gildor.

Right

[Curufin]

No, I'm serious. Just because I said he was 'the epitome of what an Elf should be', that does not mean it equates to 'the epitome of everything that is good in an Elf.'

To use an analogy, I could say that a horrible, annoying teenager who gets drunk every night and fails all her classes is the 'epitome of what a college student should be', but that doesn't mean that's a good thing.

You're assuming that because I said he's the epitome of everything an elf should be, and because I like elves, that everything an elf should be should be good.

That isn't true.

I like elves because they aren't perfect. Because they're flawed. And in that sense, Gildor is the epitome of everything an elf should be - distant from humanity, self-absorbed, and different.

He's not the epitome of everything that is good in an Elf. And I've never argued that.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Curufin

No, I'm serious. Just because I said he was 'the epitome of what an Elf should be', that does not mean it equates to 'the epitome of everything that is good in an Elf.'

To use an analogy, I could say that a horrible, annoying teenager who gets drunk every night and fails all her classes is the 'epitome of what a college student should be', but that doesn't mean that's a good thing.

You're assuming that because I said he's the epitome of everything an elf should be, and because I like elves, that everything an elf should be should be good.

That isn't true.

I like elves because they aren't perfect. Because they're flawed. And in that sense, Gildor is the epitome of everything an elf should be - distant from humanity, self-absorbed, and different.

He's not the epitome of everything that is good in an Elf. And I've never argued that.

Ah ok, well I didn't mean to put you on the defensive
It's just that you preceded the comment about the epitomical Gildor with loving feelings for the guy. My bad

[Rían]

That idea of an "escort" service just busts me up! Sounds so mafia-esque ... ("Let me make youse an offer youse can't refuse..." )