Gildor Inglorion

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by CAB

The root problem is that Gildor doesn't think he has "a foot in this race". He should have had some care for all the thousands of people who were in danger of falling under Sauron. The fact that he doesn't give more aid is merely the result of this problem.

Why should he care?

I would argue that no one (including the hobbits) acted out of pure altruism because pure altruism is a myth. It doesn't exist. But I don't suppose this is the place to discuss that, even if I was inclined to. Given your defense of Gildor, I thought you might agree with me on this point.

I do agree with you on this point. My larger point is that everyone is acting out of self-interest, so accusing Gildor of doing so is a bit of a moot point. His self-interest is simply different than that of others.

[Gordis]

Seriously, if we judge Gildor like this, why not judge them accordingly, especially Bombadil? Gildor gave them as much as Bombadil did, and yet we don't have threads going on and on about how Bombadil was a selfish loser who left the hobbits to suffer on their own (which he did). And what was Bombadil's reason? A lot less defensible than Gildor's!

We don’t have threads about Bombadil being selfish, because he IS selfish – everyone agrees on it. He is a being of undetermined origin. He is funny. He is neither good nor bad. He takes no sides. The Wise would never trust him with the Ring, because he is unable to take anything seriously.

We are told he is the Master – within his territory. Yet, he allowed the Dunedain of Cardolan to be slaughtered on HIS territory. He allowed the wights to haunt the Barrows for 1,5 thousand years, though one song would have been enough to send them away. He let Old Man Willow be. He didn’t mind the Witch-King visiting the Barrow-wights for several days right before the arrival of the hobbits and enspelling all the evil things in Bombadil’s Old forest into awareness.

Yes, he helped the hobbits out, because he felt like it. Maybe he thought them cute, maybe just out of boredom. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he similarly helped a nazgul, in the unlikely event if the latter were caught by the Old Man Willow. It is not impossible that the WK even dropped by Tom to have a few drinks and to recall the old Cardolan wars…

Not so Gildor, an Elf of the House of Finarfin, who never served the Darkness. He is on the “good guys� side and acts for their benefit. Only he does so very little…

Name me one person (just one) who helps the Hobbits who doesn't have a foot in this race. My point? Nobody - with the possible exception of the Hobbits, although they could be said to be doing this to protect the Shire - acts out of pure altruism.

As CAB said, who hasn’t a foot in the race? Only Tom Bombadil. And he does help – twice. I believe you count the bearers of the Three as personally interested, so let us take the others.
Butterbur did help (while Harry the gatekeeper and Bill Ferny didn’t). Maggot did, despite being promised much gold by Khamul. Glorfindel and Aragorn did. Gimli did, and Legolas, and Boromir, and Faramir.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Gildor also has leadership responsibilites for the other Elves he's leading. He can't just throw these aside to go lolly around Middle-earth with a bunch of hobbits.

He could have asked them if they were willing to risk their lives for the common cause and let the faint-hearted leave, as Aragorn later did.

Why should he care?

Now that is going in circles. This question has been answered at least twice.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Was it here? I think I missed that thread. Sounds like an interesting hypothesis, though...

No, it was on another forum, where the name of "Tuor" is known to everyone. *shudders* Right, Curu and DPR?
look what it is like: here
Sorry, I have no time to find the thread. Maybe later.
BTW, I will be offline for 5 days.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Gordis

We don’t have threads about Bombadil being selfish, because he IS selfish – everyone agrees on it. He is a being of undetermined origin. He is funny. He is neither good nor bad. He takes no sides. The Wise would never trust him with the Ring, because he is unable to take anything seriously.

We are told he is the Master – within his territory. Yet, he allowed the Dunedain of Cardolan to be slaughtered on HIS territory. He allowed the wights to haunt the Barrows for 1,5 thousand years, though one song would have been enough to send them away. He let Old Man Willow be. He didn’t mind the Witch-King visiting the Barrow-wights for several days right before the arrival of the hobbits and enspelling all the evil things in Bombadil’s Old forest into awareness.

Yes, he helped the hobbits out, because he felt like it. Maybe he thought them cute, maybe just out of boredom. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he similarly helped a nazgul, in the unlikely event if the latter were caught by the Old Man Willow. It is not impossible that the WK even dropped by Tom to have a few drinks and to recall the old Cardolan wars…

Bombadil is an interesting case. Personally, I believe that true, full-blown pacifism (though Bombadil is described as a "natural pacifist, which may differ from the ideological type) is immoral because the moral response to evil is to forcefully oppose it, never to turn away or, even worse, turn the other cheek. Even those who profess to follow pacifist-founded philosophies or religions rarely act on those principles when it comes to their own lives or those of their loved ones because, inside, they know right from wrong. And I believe Tolkien himself knew this to be true:

[T]here are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron. (Letters 178-9)

[Gordis]

I agree.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I have my own feelings about Bombadil. I think his goofiness was based on the joy he possessed in knowing how everything turns out, and so knowing, feared not for the Hobbits. He knew what they would need and when, and that they'd be all right once they left him and the tests they would go through would serve them well.

<speculation>He didn't travel a half-day's pony ride in five seconds when Frodo started singing in the barrow...he was already on his way, riding Fatty Lumpkin.</speculation>

Of course, this is just "irrelevant fanfic".

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I have my own feelings about Bombadil. I think his goofiness was based on the joy he possessed in knowing how everything turns out, and so knowing, feared not for the Hobbits. He knew what they would need and when, and that they'd be all right once they left him and the tests they would go through would serve them well.

Maybe you are right about Tom and the hobbits. He may have known that they would be OK.
But: that doesn't explain his inaction during the war of 1409. It did turn ill for the Dunedain of Cardolan - very ill indeed.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Good point. Then again, maybe they were bad neighbors.

Plus, he did have his Goldberry to keep satisfied. A guy's gotta have priorities. (I admit I had a crush on Goldberry when I first read LotR.)

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

:
:
But: that doesn't explain his inaction during the war of 1409. It did turn ill for the Dunedain of Cardolan - very ill indeed.

This is getting OT, but I disagree with this point. The Dunedain of Cardolan were able to take some shelter from the forces of Angmar and Rhudaur in the eaves of the Old Forest. I wonder if that would have been possible without TB's influence...???

I certainly don't understand why you think he did them a bad turn?

[ecthelion]

I would think from a more classical-romantic viewpoint:

First, both story internal and external, the hobbits needed to build up their characters and gain courage. They needed a gradual going into danger, as Gandalf said (go into danger, but not straight etc.). Gildor might have actually had this in mind.

Second, the elves were fading. some of them, although still in ME, were already half in the west. The going westward was not only physical, it was a process: not only when the elf boarded on the ship he was gone, already before that he began to fade. As is demonstrated in many parts of LOTR: "Already she appeared to him... present, and yet remote".
I think Gildor was already half in the west in his heart, and that he was not only half-interested in ME, but I think half powerless.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

I would think from a more classical-romantic viewpoint:

First, both story internal and external, the hobbits needed to build up their characters and gain courage. They needed a gradual going into danger, as Gandalf said (go into danger, but not straight etc.). Gildor might have actually had this in mind.

Well, I think that might be pushing it a bit. Gildor didn't know exactly what the Hobbits were going into, I don't think he could possibly have known this.

Second, the elves were fading. some of them, although still in ME, were already half in the west. The going westward was not only physical, it was a process: not only when the elf boarded on the ship he was gone, already before that he began to fade. As is demonstrated in many parts of LOTR: "Already she appeared to him... present, and yet remote".
I think Gildor was already half in the west in his heart, and that he was not only half-interested in ME, but I think half powerless.

I'm not sure he was 'half-powerless', although I doubt that one of the Eldar in the process of 'fading' would be quite as strong. But I think he was tired, maybe fading even has the same affect as bearing Fëanor had on MÃ*riel. I believe he could have been physically able to help the hobbits, but I'm not sure he could have been emotionally or mentally able.

[ecthelion]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Well, I think that might be pushing it a bit. Gildor didn't know exactly what the Hobbits were going into, I don't think he could possibly have known this.

He didn't know about this ring, or exactly where frodo was headed. But he perceived the danger, and helped frodo decide on the right course for himself.

[ecthelion]

We could vote on this you know. Decide democratically whether he was guilty of breaking "the good samaritan law" or not.
All in favor of Gildor say I (eye? ai? aie? aye?)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

This is getting OT, but I disagree with this point. The Dunedain of Cardolan were able to take some shelter from the forces of Angmar and Rhudaur in the eaves of the Old Forest. I wonder if that would have been possible without TB's influence...???

I certainly don't understand why you think he did them a bad turn?

I didn't say Tom did them a bad turn - he simply didn't do them a "good turn" - because had he intervened, it would have been recorded.
Here is the quote:

A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, and crossing the river entered Cardolan and surrounded Weathertop. The Dúnedain were defeated and Arveleg was slain. The Tower of Amon Sûl was burned and razed; but the palantÃ*r was saved and carried back in retreat to Fornost, Rhudaur was occupied by evil Men subject to Angmar, and the Dúnedain that remained there were slain or fled west. Cardolan was ravaged. Araphor son of Arveleg was not yet full-grown, but he was valiant, and with aid from CÃ*rdan he repelled the enemy from Fornost and the North Downs. A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.

Most of the ravaged part of Cardolan (the territory around Barrow-Downs) is and was Tom's territory. Yet it seems evident, that the remnants of the Dunedain held out on their own and Men of Carn-Dum had full access to Tyrn Gorthad. Maybe (just maybe) Tom helped in making men-eating trees in the forest less agressive, but that seems to be all.
To me it seems that Tom simply took no sides in this war among Men. He felt sadness for the slain, but remained neutral.

And re: poll. Why are there no polls here? They are fun! Perhaps we could make a subforum for polls? (I would vote for the wannabe President who offers us polls)

Anyway: I vote Gildor gilty.

[Curufin]

Gordis has returned!

Even if she is still picking on Gildor. Who I have now quoted in my siggy, just to annoy people.

I, of course, vote Gildor not guilty. I just read that part again a few days ago, and I don't think Gildor was guilty of anything. He gave his advice, sent on a letter, and gave them food, drink, and lodging for the night. As I said before, that was no less than Tom did, and nobody says anything against him, although his power is likely equal (or greater) to that of Gildor.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Gordis has returned!

Even if she is still picking on Gildor. Who I have now quoted in my siggy, just to annoy people.

You can't annoy me - I have siggies turned off.

*Turns them on* *reads*
Well, that is about the only clever thing that Gildor had told them.
*Turns siggies off*

[Curufin]

You can turn siggies off? I didn't even know you could do that.

And that is, btw, one of my very favorite quotes from LOTR. PERIOD.

[Gordis]

Yes, in "user CP" in "options" you can uncheck "show signatures". I did it ages ago...

[Curufin]

Ah, but I like mine.

Anyway, back on topic: Gildor is innocent.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Anyway, back on topic: Gildor is innocent.

No way.

More votes?

[Curufin]

A Nazgúl saying an Elf is evil? Something is very wrong here.

I wish we did have polls, I'd like to see.