LoTR on Amazon: Welcome to the Second Age

[Earniel]

Amazon's shares a map for their LoTR prequel

The Second Age is an interesting period. Lot's of open spaces, very little tied down yet. Very little characters established. Very big sandbox to explore and rummage in.

Personally I'd prefer this to anyone connected to PJ looking at the First Age, which -judging by the other adaptations- IMO can only be ruined. But there are a lot less such pitfalls when taking on the Second Age. A wise move, I think.

And even if they still want to go all Westeros on Middle-earth, the age of Númenor ought to provide enough opportunities for diplomacy, politics, epic sceneries and huge battles without seeming out of place.

Your thoughts?

I'm a bit at a loss where to put this, we'll be needing a new Tolkien TV forum is this continues, I reckon. But if they're calling it LoTR on Amazon, might as well put it here in the LoTR-movie forum.

[Valandil]

This might be the best approach. You bring up a lot of good reasons for it.

I wonder if "Young Aragorn" would have left them with too little to do. Like you say, not a lot of major battle scenes (a few - when his adventures take him into Rohan and Gondor), and besides... we all know where things are heading with him.

Second Age gives them something much closer to Game of Thrones, or whatever. And... maybe it'll be toward the end, during the time of Ar-Pharazon - or maybe it will be in the middle of the Second Age, when Sauron first makes the One Ring and takes over much of Middle Earth.

And... if they stay in the Second Age, they're much less likely to contradict my own fanfic histories of Middle Earth, which is VERY important!

[Valandil]

Oooo... or what if they did this: Sometime AFTER the Numenoreans helped defeat Sauron in 1701, and began colonizing in 1800... the Men who later became the Ringwraiths have their Rings, but have not yet been turned into wraiths - because it's set before 2251. You have Numenorean enclaves on the coast - and somewhere, you have at least nine kingdoms run by a Man who is a "great warrior and sorcerer of old" (quoting from memory there). There are plenty of Elven Kingdoms around, lots of Men... of all types, a good deal of Orcs, the Dwarves of Khazad-Dum.

What do you think?

[Earniel]

Well, it depends. The Second Age is still a vast piece of time. And they'll have to pick a spot. Constantly going back and forth over centuries (darn those long lifespans, hah) to juicy parts is not going to keep people watching. And the rise of Númenor probably doesn't provide enough conflict to be interesting. That leaves the Golden Age of Númenor and the Fall.

If they want continuity with Jackson's LoTR -and as far as I can tell, they want to- then they're very likely to pick a spot with the Rings and Sauron.

I'm thinking in that light the story of Celebrimbor and the forging of the Rings may be too good to pass on. But apart from that, Númenor is where the action is mostly in the Second Aera, not with the Elves. Although the fall of the Celebrimbor is still a good while away from Númenor going evil, with waltzing over the people of Middle-earth and the resulting civil war. And those are the more interesting bits if you want politics and battles...

And it would be tricky to start near the end of Númenor because what if you do the Fall and then have to find something to do for the next season if you get renewed. You'll be in the Third Aera real quick.

[The Gaffer]

Great news! Plenty of room for made-up sub-GoT antics and not too much in the way of story straightjacket.

As you say, the key will be when they choose to set it, assuming they stick with the broad SA timeline.

I guess that's the sort of thing that executive producers have to wrestle with. If you start too late so that you can finish up with the Downfall, for example, you've got less room for sequels if it's a hit.

That said, I can see plenty of mileage in the rise of Sauron (who could still take a fair form, IIRC), the forging of the rings, Moria, etc etc.

Does anybody know how many episodes/series are in the works?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

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Does anybody know how many episodes/series are in the works?

I read someplace that they're trying to sign actors to 5-year deals.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Valandil

... if they stay in the Second Age, they're much less likely to contradict my own fanfic histories of Middle Earth, which is VERY important!

From what I have been able to gather from reading discussions on other sites about the 'agreement', it appears some limited material from Unfinished Tales and HoME is allowed to be used along with the material of the original 1969 United Artists agreement. If so, they have a fair amount of 2nd Age material to use. Maybe an Aldarion and Erendis season, a Celebrimbor season, etc.

I'm hoping for the best and expecting the worst. Just keep Peter Jackson and his screenwriters and CGI away from it.

[Valandil]

Now THAT is interesting news... and totally unexpected!

Wonder if it's an indication of how things will go with the new leadership, post Christopher Tolkien. I forget... who is in charge of making these decisions now? I know Christopher stepped aside recently...

[Snowdog]

I'll have to go find the discussions. It was on The Hall of Fire site. A lot of legal types discussing the ins and outs of the original agreements (there were two) that J.R.R. Tolkien made with United Artists in 1969, and this new deal. Apparently there were indications that with Christopher's advancing age, his wife, kids and grandkids along with the rest of the board of the Tolkien Estate, got him to agree to allowing some additional resources be used in this agreement. The wisdom was it would eventually be used in media when the younger folk took control of the Estate and that they should work out the specifics sooner rather than later. It is well known Christopher didn't like the movies and is against any more productions, but in agreeing to this carefully-crafted Amazon deal, he decided to step aside as the chairman of the board of directors of the estate.

[Valandil]

That's very interesting. Explains a lot about what was going on behind the transition. Yes - if you can find that discussion I'd very much like to read it.

[Varnafindë]

That would be interesting reading indeed.

There is a major generation shift - Christopher was closely involved in the creation of his father's works. Large sections of the LotR manuscripts were sent to him to read while he served in WW2 (in South Africa, I think?), and he joined his father in the Inklings discussions later.

He was the obvious choice for "finishing what wasn't done", and even if he had done no more than publishing Silmarillion in 1977, he still would have shown the world that Middle-earth was a lot more than just Hobbits. But that, of course, was only the beginning, and he has devoted his life to editing and publishing his father's works. He has done a lot of the total work.

I would assume that the next generation may feel a little more distance to it, just by not having been immersed in the work in the same way. So it makes sense that they would be more willing to publish in new media.

[Snowdog]

It's in part on this site and some of it is talked about on this thread some. It appears to be Voronwë the Faithful who has done the research into the original agreements and all, with some deep commentary by Beutlin. There are 15 pages to that thread and a lot of insular gab, but there are jewels scattered among it. This thread is probably the deepest discussion I've seen on the whole topic as it seems to try and gather all the sources into one place.

The discussion about the more recent agreement is a bit more vague as I don't think the parties have revealed the agreement clauses publically.

[Earniel]

this article on gamesradar has some more information about the agreement.

Peter Jackson is definitely out, but New Zealand iconic landscapes appear to be in. Not a bad choice, LothLórien was built somewhere in the Second Age, IIRC. They might be able to reuse the set.

Interesting to see there's a deadline for production in the contract.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

this article on gamesradar has some more information about the agreement.

Peter Jackson is definitely out, but New Zealand iconic landscapes appear to be in. Not a bad choice, LothLórien was built somewhere in the Second Age, IIRC. They might be able to reuse the set.

Interesting to see there's a deadline for production in the contract.

The 2nd Age of Middle Earth is confirmed and this kinda makes me a little bit more hopeful.

And yay that PJ is out!

[Earniel]

I marvel at the strict canon-restrictions. Either Shippey is a little too optimistic on how well Amazon is going to play nice or the Tolkien Estate lawyers really tightened down the hatches after PJ's stroll into Middle-earth. Normally creative license isn't that narrowly defined.

[Draken]

Hearing this news prompted me to wander back in here. Feeling a lot older, but not much wiser! Nice to see some familiar names here still.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Draken

Hearing this news prompted me to wander back in here. Feeling a lot older, but not much wiser! Nice to see some familiar names here still.

Always good to see old names re-appear! Hard to believe it's been 20 years since PJ started filming his abomination...

[Snowdog]

To take a line from Star Wars... "I have a bad feeling about this."

[Andúril]

Premier date: 2nd September 2022

First official look (https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/stat...106617359?s=20)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7zdJNXV...name=4096x4096

Flipped on the theory that this is Tirion with a view of Laurelin and Telperion through the Calacirya:

[Earniel]

Must be. You can vaguely see the two Trees in the bigger picture. Númenor only had the one White Tree.

Would have thought they'd focus on Númenor. But I guess Aman is too good to stay away from.

Not sure how I feel about that.

Stunning view, though.