What Was the Purpose of the 2 Blue Wizards

ItalianLegolas · 12-05-2004, 06:05 PM

In one of the books, Tolkien states that along with Gandalf(the Grey), Saruman(the White) and Radagast(the Brown)
came 2 un-named wizards, and all that we know about them is that they were robed in blue, so the obvious question is, what was the purpose of the 2 Blue wizards, because they are never mentioned in the core LoTR books, and is never mentioned by either Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast. So i would like to hear your ideas...

Elemmírë · 12-05-2004, 06:34 PM

An interesting question, I think.

This is, of course, mere conjecture, and I could easily be proven wrong by anyone with more knowledge of HoME.

Gandalf (and arguably Radagast, though to a lesser degree) was the only wizard to remain loyal to the cause that the Valar had given them. He was the only one to stand beside the people of Middle Earth against Sauron in the war at the end of the Third Age.

Making him the only one out of 3 wizards, to me, doesn't have as much of an impact as making him the only one out of 5. If 4 fell two inaction (and in Saruman's case, opposition), to me it speaks more for the difficulty of their task, even for Maiar, than if only 2 were disloyal (again, Radagast can be debated).

It's the only idea I can come up with, at present.

Anyone else...

btw, I have no documentation, but I've seen in at least one forum the names "Pallando" and "Alatar" given to the blue wizards. Are these real names?

ps... welcome to the Moot, ItalianLegolas! Hope you enjoy it!

Attalus · 12-05-2004, 06:51 PM

The two Blue Wizards, Alatair and Pallandro, were said by JRRT in the Letters to have gone into the East, presumably to Harad or the environs, and further were said to have failed. I don't have the reference at hand, but a few moments work with the Index should turn them up.

Wayfarer · 12-05-2004, 07:08 PM

The purpose of the Blue Wizards was the same as the purpose of the other three.

ItalianLegolas · 12-05-2004, 07:40 PM

In Radagast's case, i think, it was more of a case of blind trust/stupidity(they may be the same), as opposed to inaction/un-loyalness to the cause.
in response to Wayfarer, if it is true that they went into the East, is it not also possible that they, like Saruman were turned from there good ways and into the Dark-Lords service? Is it also possible, that maybe they came to rule Harad? or did they return to the West with their task unfinished?

Wayfarer · 12-05-2004, 07:48 PM

BeardofPants · 12-06-2004, 01:10 AM

Been a few threads on these guys. A quick search will turn up the threads, and the sources.

BeardofPants · 12-06-2004, 01:17 AM

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...&threadid=6793
http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...Wizards+colors
http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?s=...ht=blue+wizard

***Valandil*** · 12-06-2004, 07:44 AM

Wayfarer is correct as far as the 'Purpose Statement' goes.

For the names, and a bit more information, there's a section of 'Unfinished Tales' that can be of interest. Appropriately enough, a chapter called 'The Istari'.

Tolkien actually speculates in a couple different directions about them - if he ever made up his mind for sure, I don't know which one he settled on. One - that they either became ineffective or were the source of 'false religions' in the eastern parts of Middle Earth, by which we might guess that the people there were more easily ensnared by Sauron. The other - that they WERE effective and faithful to their purpose - with a sort of 'who knows how bad things would have been without them' kind of statement.

In any case, I believe there's mention someplace that the two went into the east with Saruman, and that he eventually returned alone. Say

... you don't suppose that HE might have

...

inked · 12-06-2004, 10:20 AM

I think that those referenced wizards could have been the logical connection for a sequel to LOTR had there been time or inclination on JRRT's part. But the reference to their failure is I think meant to be understood in the 3 responses we see in LOTR. One could become so absorbed in the delights and preoccupations of ME that one lost sight of one's goal without becoming actively evil a la Radagast. One then becomes a dupe for the actively evil a la Saruman in which the submission to evil is complete. Finally, one could stay true to one's mission even with intermittent failures a la Gandalf.

I think the reason we are given the existence of the Istari and these known outcomes per the LOTR and related works is that we are meant to reflect on the modes by which any cause or faith is adhered to, won, or lost. The subcreation models the real world of our existence. For any cause we ourselves may be traitors a la Saruman, indifferent a la Radagast, or faithful servants even with errors and mistakes a la Gandalf. There are gradations in these responses of course. But there are no other responses available in fact in ME or our primary world.

Much food for thought in this matter.

Keep on thinking!

ItalianLegolas · 12-06-2004, 08:03 PM

couldn't it also just be that they were characters that Tolkien put in but never fully developed?

inked · 12-06-2004, 09:45 PM

Hey, IL, you aska da questions, you getta da answers! And ya gonna like it, see!?!

Yeah, to your last.

Attalus · 12-07-2004, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

couldn't it also just be that they were characters that Tolkien put in but never fully developed?

*shrugs* I don't think he developed them because he wasn't interested in them. I suspect that, thematically, they were used to highlight Gandalf's achievement: the only one of the Five Wizards that succeeded.

Lefty Scaevola · 12-07-2004, 11:06 AM

JRRT's earlier ideas [in UT and the letters] about the Blue wizard's mission was more pessimistic )presummed failure) than his later ideas. His later notes idicate that they had done more to prevent even larger hordes from the East over running the west. comparing all the material on them give a very sad insight into JRRT final years, with a note indicating that he could not locate nor much remember what he had previously written about them.

Pytt · 12-07-2004, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attalus

*shrugs* I don't think he developed them because he wasn't interested in them. I suspect that, thematically, they were used to highlight Gandalf's achievement: the only one of the Five Wizards that succeeded.

does anyone know what radagast's quest/ task/ mission was? after Attalus says Gandalf was the only who succeeded...

ItalianLegolas · 12-11-2004, 03:09 PM

i don't think Tolkiend ever says what radagast's mission was, maybe it was the same as gandalf's but then radadast became obsessed with animals...

Manveru · 12-13-2004, 11:55 PM

weren't all of their missions basically the same?

Manveru · 12-14-2004, 12:20 AM

i found this website that has alot of info on the two wizards apparently they were maier of orome (since they would be travelling all the way to the east) but anyway ill let u read the rest:
http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/bluewizards.asp

ItalianLegolas · 12-14-2004, 03:48 PM

that's interesting Manveru, that was what I always thought, that they were just undeveloped, or forgotten characters

Attalus · 12-14-2004, 03:58 PM

I don't think they were forgotten, since JRRT was writing about him in the last weeks of his life.

12-05-2004, 06:05 PM	#1
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	What Was the Purpose of the 2 Blue Wizards In one of the books, Tolkien states that along with Gandalf(the Grey), Saruman(the White) and Radagast(the Brown) came 2 un-named wizards, and all that we know about them is that they were robed in blue, so the obvious question is, what was the purpose of the 2 Blue wizards, because they are never mentioned in the core LoTR books, and is never mentioned by either Gandalf, Saruman or Radagast. So i would like to hear your ideas...

12-05-2004, 06:34 PM	#2
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	An interesting question, I think. This is, of course, mere conjecture, and I could easily be proven wrong by anyone with more knowledge of HoME. Gandalf (and arguably Radagast, though to a lesser degree) was the only wizard to remain loyal to the cause that the Valar had given them. He was the only one to stand beside the people of Middle Earth against Sauron in the war at the end of the Third Age. Making him the only one out of 3 wizards, to me, doesn't have as much of an impact as making him the only one out of 5. If 4 fell two inaction (and in Saruman's case, opposition), to me it speaks more for the difficulty of their task, even for Maiar, than if only 2 were disloyal (again, Radagast can be debated). It's the only idea I can come up with, at present. Anyone else... btw, I have no documentation, but I've seen in at least one forum the names "Pallando" and "Alatar" given to the blue wizards. Are these real names? ps... welcome to the Moot, ItalianLegolas! Hope you enjoy it! __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman Last edited by Elemmírë : 12-05-2004 at 06:35 PM.

12-05-2004, 06:51 PM	#3
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	The two Blue Wizards, Alatair and Pallandro, were said by JRRT in the Letters to have gone into the East, presumably to Harad or the environs, and further were said to have failed. I don't have the reference at hand, but a few moments work with the Index should turn them up. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

12-05-2004, 07:08 PM	#4
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	The purpose of the Blue Wizards was the same as the purpose of the other three. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-05-2004, 07:48 PM	#6
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Yes. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-05-2004, 07:40 PM	#5
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	In Radagast's case, i think, it was more of a case of blind trust/stupidity(they may be the same), as opposed to inaction/un-loyalness to the cause. in response to Wayfarer, if it is true that they went into the East, is it not also possible that they, like Saruman were turned from there good ways and into the Dark-Lords service? Is it also possible, that maybe they came to rule Harad? or did they return to the West with their task unfinished?

12-06-2004, 01:10 AM	#7
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Been a few threads on these guys. A quick search will turn up the threads, and the sources. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

12-06-2004, 01:17 AM	#8
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...&threadid=6793 http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...Wizards+colors http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?s=...ht=blue+wizard __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

12-06-2004, 07:44 AM	#9
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Wayfarer is correct as far as the 'Purpose Statement' goes. For the names, and a bit more information, there's a section of 'Unfinished Tales' that can be of interest. Appropriately enough, a chapter called 'The Istari'. Tolkien actually speculates in a couple different directions about them - if he ever made up his mind for sure, I don't know which one he settled on. One - that they either became ineffective or were the source of 'false religions' in the eastern parts of Middle Earth, by which we might guess that the people there were more easily ensnared by Sauron. The other - that they WERE effective and faithful to their purpose - with a sort of 'who knows how bad things would have been without them' kind of statement. In any case, I believe there's mention someplace that the two went into the east with Saruman, and that he eventually returned alone. Say ... you don't suppose that HE might have ... __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 12-06-2004 at 07:45 AM.

12-06-2004, 10:20 AM	#10
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	I think that those referenced wizards could have been the logical connection for a sequel to LOTR had there been time or inclination on JRRT's part. But the reference to their failure is I think meant to be understood in the 3 responses we see in LOTR. One could become so absorbed in the delights and preoccupations of ME that one lost sight of one's goal without becoming actively evil a la Radagast. One then becomes a dupe for the actively evil a la Saruman in which the submission to evil is complete. Finally, one could stay true to one's mission even with intermittent failures a la Gandalf. I think the reason we are given the existence of the Istari and these known outcomes per the LOTR and related works is that we are meant to reflect on the modes by which any cause or faith is adhered to, won, or lost. The subcreation models the real world of our existence. For any cause we ourselves may be traitors a la Saruman, indifferent a la Radagast, or faithful servants even with errors and mistakes a la Gandalf. There are gradations in these responses of course. But there are no other responses available in fact in ME or our primary world. Much food for thought in this matter. Keep on thinking! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

12-06-2004, 08:03 PM	#11
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	couldn't it also just be that they were characters that Tolkien put in but never fully developed? __________________ What was lost is now found.

12-06-2004, 09:45 PM	#12
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Hey, IL, you aska da questions, you getta da answers! And ya gonna like it, see!?! Yeah, to your last. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

12-07-2004, 11:06 AM	#14
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	JRRT's earlier ideas [in UT and the letters] about the Blue wizard's mission was more pessimistic )presummed failure) than his later ideas. His later notes idicate that they had done more to prevent even larger hordes from the East over running the west. comparing all the material on them give a very sad insight into JRRT final years, with a note indicating that he could not locate nor much remember what he had previously written about them. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

12-11-2004, 03:09 PM	#16
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	i don't think Tolkiend ever says what radagast's mission was, maybe it was the same as gandalf's but then radadast became obsessed with animals... __________________ What was lost is now found.

12-13-2004, 11:55 PM	#17
Manveru Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 256	weren't all of their missions basically the same? __________________ Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland

12-14-2004, 12:20 AM	#18
Manveru Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 256	i found this website that has alot of info on the two wizards apparently they were maier of orome (since they would be travelling all the way to the east) but anyway ill let u read the rest: http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/bluewizards.asp __________________ Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland

12-14-2004, 03:48 PM	#19
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	that's interesting Manveru, that was what I always thought, that they were just undeveloped, or forgotten characters __________________ What was lost is now found.

12-14-2004, 03:58 PM	#20
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I don't think they were forgotten, since JRRT was writing about him in the last weeks of his life. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

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