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Old 03-09-2001, 04:38 PM   #1
Captain Stern
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Elves and the halls of Mandos

Why wasn't Finwe allowed to return? He did nothing wrong. I say this because at the end of The Silmarilion Finarfin was still High King of the Noldor.

Finrod was allowed to return so why not someone like Fingolfin?

When they die and come back do they lose their status? This doesn't make sense to me.

Feanor is the only one specificaly mentioned to still be in the Halls of Mandos.

Do any of the HOME books expand on Mandos and the Elves?
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Old 03-12-2001, 12:11 AM   #2
Grand Admiral Reese
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Re: Elves and the halls of Mandos

The Elves stay there until Mandos lets them out(except in cases like Saeros or Feanor where they have a specific sentance to serve). However long that is, I'd guess is up to him.

But as to Finwe and Finarfin, he might have been released and simply didn't want to be High King of the Noldor again(remember he had been for millennia by the time he was killed maybe he just wanted a change of pace).
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Old 03-20-2001, 05:12 AM   #3
Inoldonil
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Re: Elves and the halls of Mandos

Finwe was alloud to return, but he chose not to. He told Este that his returning would bring no love to his former wife, who no longer loved him. I don't remember why that was. It's in the Shibboleth of Feanor in The Peoples of Middle-earth (Volume XII of HOME). I'll quote the passage tomorrow.
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Old 03-24-2001, 07:51 PM   #4
Inoldonil
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Re: Elves and the halls of Mandos

Sorry about the long wait. Here's the quote, it's in the notes, but I'll give the passage it's relevent to:

' 3. Finwe had four children by Indis: a daughter Findis, a son, a daughter Irime, and a son. Findis was made by combining the names of her parents. Little is said of her in The Silmarillion. She did not go into exile, but went with her mother after the slaying of Finwe and they abode among the Vanyar in grief until such time as it seemed good to Manwe to restore Finwe to life.[27]

[27] If he ever did so. Litle has been ever heard in Middle-earth of Aman after the departure of the Noldor. Those who returned thither have never come back, since the change of the world. To Numenor in its first days they went often, but small part of the lore and histories of Numenor survived its Downfall. [With the words in the text at this point concerning Indis cf. Laws and Customes among the Eldar ( X.249 and note 17), where Finwe in Mandos said to Vaire: "But Indis parted from me without death. I had not seen her for many years, and when the Marrer smote me I was alone. ... Little comfort should I bring her, if I returned."] '

So actually a fuller explanation is to be desired in Morgoth's Ring, page 249, note 17, but I don't have that book.
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Old 03-25-2001, 02:40 PM   #5
Eruve
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Re: Elves and the halls of Mandos

Note 17 doesn't actually add too much. It just says that there is no mention of Finwe and Indis' estrangement in the earlier story given in MR. It also mentions a separation is implied in the final Quenta by the fact that Indis did not accompany Finwe when he went into banishment with Feanor. (Feanor's wife Nerdanel would not go to Formenos and asked leave to stay with Indis.)

The story of what happened to Finwe when he went to Mandos is discussed in HoME X a bit before this (in the Laws and Customs section). Miriel did not wish to return from Mandos and after a time, Finwe wanted to marry Indis. After much debate, the Valar decided to allow this on the condition that Miriel agreed to remain in Mandos forever, since an Elf cannot have two spouses who are alive at the same time. Miriel agreed. After Finwe was slain, he said he did not wish to return from Mandos himself, so Miriel was given a second chance to return. She was re-embodied but remained in the Halls of Mandos as a sort of handmaiden to Este: she helped with the weaving, since this was her great talent.

To address the original question, Namo (Mandos) decides how long a particular spirit remains in his halls. The length of time is dependent on that spirit's actions during its lifetime. We don't know about Fingolfin; he isn't mentioned as returning. Finrod is mentioned as having returned, but we don't know when this was. He was allowed to return because he was "good": he sacrificed his life so Beren could continue his quest.
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