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Old 06-03-2004, 09:53 AM   #1
Tatië
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Petty Dwarves - Melkor the DIRECT cause?

The Petty dwarves are said to have originated in the East, and were filled with hate of all other creatures. It is said they driven away because they were small, deformed and rebellious. I give some passages from the essay Quendi and Eldar (HoME 10) to show this point.



Quote:
The Dwarves were in a special position. They claimed to have known Beleriand before even the Eldar first came there; and there do appear to have been small groups dwelling furtively in the highlands west of Sirion from a very early date: they attacked and waylaid the Elves by stealth, and the Elves did not at first recognize them as Incarnates, but thought them to be some kind of cunning animal, and hunted them. By their own account they were fugitives, driven into the wilderness by their own kin further east, and later they were called the Noegyth Nibin or Petty-dwarves, for they had become smaller than the norm of their kind, and filled with hate for all other creatures. When the Elves met the powerful Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, in the eastern side of the Mountains, they recognized them as Incarnates, for they had skill in many crafts, and learned the Elvish speech readily for purposes of traffic. At first the Elves were in doubt concerning them, believing them to be related to Orcs and creatures of Morgoth; but when they found that, though proud and unfriendly, they could be trusted to keep any treaties that they made, and did not molest those who left them in peace, they traded with them and let them come and go as they would.
More on the petty dwarves...
Quote:
The Eldar did not at first recognize these as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. They only became aware of their existence indeed when they attacked the Eldar by stealth at night, or if they caught them alone in wild places. The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves, and they called them Levain tad-dail, or simply Tad-dail, and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the acquaintance of the Naugrim, the Tad-dail were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone. There were then few of them surviving, and they were very wary, and too fearful to attack any Elf, unless their hiding-places were approached too nearly. The Sindar gave them the names Nogotheg 'Dwarflet', or Nogoth niben 'Petty Dwarf'.
The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven our from the Communities, being deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious. But they still acknowledged their kinship and resented any injuries done to them. Indeed it was one of their grievances against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there. This grievance was set aside, when treaties were made between the Dwarves and the Sindar, in consideration of the plea that the Petty-dwarves had never declared themselves to the Eldar, nor presented any claims to land or habitations, but had at once attacked the newcomers in darkness and ambush. But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mim, the only Petty-dwarf who played a memorable part in the Annals of Beleriand.
A couple questions come to my mind.

1) Why would these be hateful to everyone? Also, why rebellious, or deformed? Hate of all things is a characteristic of orcs and evil people, not dwarves.

2) What does the "further east" in the first quote refer to? The Ered Luin, or much further? The wording suggest to me this was further than Ered Luin.

One thing I consider is the fact that Dwarves woke after elves, yet Petty ones had reached and settled in Beleriand before the Eldar came there. I do not think they had too much time, if they did come from further east than the Ered Luin or even Misty Mountains, to have become hateful and deformed at their original dwellings. At least not through natural means?

Now a look at another essay, one written several years later called Of Dwarves and Men (HoME 12).

First, what did JRRT say now about the places of origin of the Dwarves?

Quote:
In the Dwarvish traditions of the Third Age the names of the places where each of the Seven Ancestors had 'awakened' were remembered; but only two of them were known to Elves and Men of the West: the most westerly, the awakening place of the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams; and that of the ancestor of the Longbeards, the eldest in making and awakening. The first had been in the north of the Ered Lindon, the great eastern wall of Beleriand, of which the Blue Mountains of the Second and later ages were the remnant; the second had been Mount Gundabad (in origin a Khuzdul name), which was therefore revered by the Dwarves, and its occupation in the Third Age by the Orks of Sauron was one of the chief reasons for their great hatred of the Orks. The other two places were eastward, at distances as great or greater than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad: the arising of the Ironfists and Stiffbeards, and that of the Blacklocks and Stonefoots. Though these four points were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication, and in the early ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad.
Later in the Essay we have:
Quote:
They [some Men] were brave and loyal folk, truehearted, haters of Morgoth and his servants; and at first had regarded the Dwarves askance, fearing that they were under the Shadow (as they said).
And there CT gives a note:
Quote:
For they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind. [This was a later pencilled note. On the previous page of the typescript my father wrote at the same time, without indication of its reference to the text but perhaps arising from the mention of the awakening of the eastern kindreds of the Dwarves: 'Alas, it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.'
Now, are these evil ones that Men had encountered away East of the same kind as the Petty Dwarves, or where they regular sized dwarves who were just cruel and hostile?

If these Petty dwarves are the ones who came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil, then I wonder: Does this mean that they had turned evil due to living in a a world where Melkor had tainted, or does this imply a more direct link betwen Melkor and the early Naugrim? Did he take some of them captive at a point, or come among them or send a servant among them and do evil directly to them?

But the Petty dwarves did not hate eachother, and seem not to have been entirely without love. This is not characteristic of orcs, but could it be these Petty Dwarves were a kind of failed attempt at orcs? Dwarves proving more resistant to whatever process Melkor might have used with men and or Elves in making orcs?
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Old 06-04-2004, 02:12 AM   #2
Beor
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Maybe they were just hateful because the dwarves pushed them away. Generally people tend to hold a grudge against others when they arent included, why should dwarves be any different? They may have come under the shadow for a while, though, making them meaner, but I would say that for the most part, they are just angry little dwarves, too small to really make a difference in the world (it would seem), so they just get by how ever they can. That's my best guess
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Old 06-19-2004, 12:36 AM   #3
Ñólendil
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1) Why would these be hateful to everyone? Also, why rebellious, or deformed? Hate of all things is a characteristic of orcs and evil people, not dwarves.


Evidently it can be a trait of Dwarves. I would say they are so hateful because they have received so much hate. Some of these Petty Dwarves commited wicked crimes, and for these there are no good answers--is is the work of Morgoth? Well, all evil eventually goes back to him, so yes, but the Dwarves are none the less responsible for themselves, and one may find fault with them. But other Petty Dwarves were sadly cast away simply because they were deformed, or weak. I don't think that is their fault--rather the fault lies with the cruel Dwarrows who cast them out.

2) What does the "further east" in the first quote refer to? The Ered Luin, or much further? The wording suggest to me this was further than Ered Luin.

I rather thought the Petty Dwarves came from all the other tribes.

My take is this: There were Petty Dwarves to be found in all the other seven tribes, and the fact that some of the easternmost tribes served Morgoth is coincedental. I would also bring one's attention to The Hobbit, where it is said that some Dwarves had allied with the Goblins. I think it was the easternmost that did this.

Quote:
This is not characteristic of orcs, but could it be these Petty Dwarves were a kind of failed attempt at orcs? Dwarves proving more resistant to whatever process Melkor might have used with men and or Elves in making orcs?
I really don't think so. I think too often people look at Tolkien's world in terms of black and white, when there were so many shades of gray. Humans are corruptable, Elves are corruptable, Hobbits are corruptable, and yes, so are Dwarves--and I do not mean merely on the physical plane, I mean spiritually, and when I say spiritually I do _not_ mean as a direct intervention of Morgoth to such an extent that the fault all lies with the Dark Lord and not with the individual. Dwarves simply can become wicked, or not-so-pure, just as anyone else.
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Old 10-09-2004, 05:24 PM   #4
Michael Martinez
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I think the question of why the Petty-Dwarves were hateful toward other creatures is answered, at least in part, by the fact that they started out as fugitives. Since they were outcasts from mainstream Dwarven society, they must not have been able to get along with the majority of Dwarves. If they were selfish, petty, and anti-social to begin with, then their communities would have been outlaw communities living in the wilderness.

Being subject to no law, they would have resented the encroachment of other Dwarves or any creatures who might in some way threaten their free existence. They might only imagine such intruders to be a threat. But once they began attacking the Elves, they initiated a pattern of reciprocation which would only reinforce their antisocial behaviors.
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Old 10-12-2004, 04:38 AM   #5
Ñólendil
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But the Elves attacked the Petty Dwarves first, thinking them less than humane.
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Old 10-12-2004, 12:20 PM   #6
Michael Martinez
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Gandalf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ñólendil
But the Elves attacked the Petty Dwarves first, thinking them less than humane.
No, the Petty-Dwarves attacked the Elves first. Check the citation above.

It could be said, of course, that Melkor's poisoning of Arda (and all contained within it) might be partially responsible for the Petty-Dwarves. In a roundabout way, since Aule made the Dwarves partially in anticipation of the conflicts with Melkor's servants, Melkor had some influence in their design. He was partially responsible for their stubborn nature.
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