Nazgul horses

[Butterbeer]

PYTT: they were most certainly Mearas

well excuse me bud but i totally disagree: how many mearas WERE THERE???
were they ten a penny?


Steal a (rare anyway) black one from Rohan and get one free???

NO!
IMHO the Mearas were (please correct me if there is evidence to the contrary anywhere) the Mearas were both rare and even rarer in these days, and the black horses AS raided and stolen rather than given in any tribute were rarer still.

Shadowfax was the last of his kind the Rohirrim think and say. He was Chieftan: were then EVERY rare Blackhorse carted off to Sauron and Mordor ALL Lesser Mearas?

Gordis:
My general (initial to be sure) take is that they did take a lot of training and selection for sure: but THEY would SURELY have back-ups: IF it was SO hard and SO MASSIVELY AGAINST THE ODDS TO ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO TRAIN ANY HORSE TO BE RIDDEN BY A RIDER

* presses caps lock*

then they would just NOT consider riders on horseback at all.

Therefore the facT that they DID suggests that WHILST NOT any easy exercise it wasn't totally impossible at all.

I am open to your original idea: but to be fair would need therefore some serious convincing!


PS PYTT: didn't mean to be rude or anything with above post! just the way it rolled off the typer!
best
BB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by gordis

1. I said one horse may have remained alive…
and it was curious that only one nazgul horse was seen later in the War of the Ring battles
It may or may not be a coincidence.

True, but you also stated your belief, and underlined it, that the missing horse survived, and that it was the same beast the WK rode before the Gates of Minas Tirith. You then further stated in part:

So it looks like:
1. One of the Black Riders (most likely the WK) was able to get out of the river without "loosing his shape" (whatever that means) and save a horse and ride to Mordor ahead of the others. Later he probably collected the rest of his Riders on the Fell Beast (remember the shape that flew over the Fellowship near Caradhras)
2. The nazgul had only one trained horse each

So you see how one could see that statements like "may have remained alive" etc are not quite the strongest and loudest statements in your original post.

2 We do not know if Sauron was planning to start the war anytime soon before 3017, when he learned about the Ring. Soon yes, but may be in 50 years. Time goes slow for those eternal guys…

True, we don't know when he was going to start, but we do know he was planning it since 2951, and that his arm began to get noticeably stronger after 3000. He sent 3 of the Nazgul to Dol Guldur in 2951, surely he's bright enough to figure out that horses can be killed and do die and that his chief servants may need more than one? And he certainly had enough to figure it out...60 years! That is several lifetimes of horses.

Further, if there were more than one fell beast (and how long did it take for them to be raised to adulthood and trained) per Nazgul (remember that at least one has been felled by Legolas, yet nine are in the air), surely he's thought enough ahead to provide multiple horses?

Then before 3017 nazgul sat quietly in Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur. Sauron started to use them as messengers and commando force only for matters connected with the Ring. Remember Gandalf's surprize when he learned that the nazgul rode forth?

So? Since he's been preparing for war for over 50 years, do you really seriously think that he has only 1 horse per Naz, when even the orcs are better equipped? I doubt it. Plenty of time to have plenty of horses for Nazgul bred, trained, and to have had foals bred and trained and for these foals to grow up and be bred and have foals.....and so on. By the time you get through a few generations of horses, you have a large herd, and they of course are going to be accustomed to their masters.

I don't know that Gandalf was surprised so much as this was the signal that Sauron felt strong enough to do something, and of course since they were riding north, Gandalf had Frodo and the Ring to worry about. He did after all already know that Gollum had been in Mordor and been there sometime and that Sauron may have learned of the Ring--so he was more concerned and afraid and in haste than surprised.

3. I agree with Pytt there. I imagine that the Witch-King could "whistle" for his Fell-Beast or call it by a nazgul screech or by a mental order. The beast could fly to him then and there, there was no need to have it marched to the front lines. So shifting mounts and flying to Theoden was a matter of minutes.

Assumption though. Possible, but utterly, completely assumption.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

FB, you said that the Nazgûl did not have to train them, just visit everynow and again. I disagree.

If you were taken hostage, and your captors did not have guns, you would be scared stiff, when a guy visits with a gun, as you would be everytime he isits. If however he was you captor, then after a while you would grow use to there being a man with a gun, and you wouldn't be as scared, you'd just be cautious. IMO it's that same with the Nazgûl. If they just visited, the horses would be scared stiff every time they came. If the Nazgûl trained them, they'd get use to the Nazgûl.

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

well excuse me bud but i totally disagree: how many mearas WERE THERE???
were they ten a penny?


Steal a (rare anyway) black one from Rohan and get one free???

NO!
IMHO the Mearas were (please correct me if there is evidence to the contrary anywhere) the Mearas were both rare and even rarer in these days, and the black horses AS raided and stolen rather than given in any tribute were rarer still.

Shadowfax was the last of his kind the Rohirrim think and say. He was Chieftan: were then EVERY rare Blackhorse carted off to Sauron and Mordor ALL Lesser Mearas?

The Mearas were extremley rare, but I build the assumpation that the horses the nazgul used were Mearas on what Gordis had found out about haste vs Shadowfax.
It couldn't be alot of Mearas left, but we know Sauron got horses stealed from Rohan, and I don't think it is uncapable for his forces to get Mearas too. If they first got more than one Mearas, couldn't they mate them, and so get more Mearas? I would believe that was possible. And about the black horses, if they first got their hands on a white mearas, they could somehow change the color to black. Only something I think, off course.

But the strongest prove as I see it, is their speed as Gordis have showed.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

PS PYTT: didn't mean to be rude or anything with above post! just the way it rolled off the typer!
best
BB

No problem

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

FB, you said that the Nazgûl did not have to train them, just visit everynow and again. I disagree.

If you were taken hostage, and your captors did not have guns, you would be scared stiff, when a guy visits with a gun, as you would be everytime he isits. If however he was you captor, then after a while you would grow use to there being a man with a gun, and you wouldn't be as scared, you'd just be cautious. IMO it's that same with the Nazgûl. If they just visited, the horses would be scared stiff every time they came. If the Nazgûl trained them, they'd get use to the Nazgûl.

But we aren't speaking of "captives" except for the first generation of stolen or tribute horses. We are specifically told by Tolkien that the steeds the Nazgul ride have been specially BRED for the purpose--i. e. these are not captive horses that have had to be trained, but were BORN with Sauron and the Nazgul nearby if not present and whom they've seen since birth.

Take modern horse training. The jockey, the actual rider of the horse, doesn't train the horse, or feed it, or do daily exercise. He stops by from time to time to ride and horse and rider come to know and be accustomed to one another. But there are others who do the training, grooming, feeding, exercise etc. Same here. The Nazgul probably have to be present more often than the modern jockey because of the fear that they would inculcate, but that doesn't mean that they have to take the time to do the actual training and care and feeding of the animals.

And of course we're all talking about this without reference to Sauron's power and knowledge--spells and herbs and such things.

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Born and Bred are two different things. If they were only bred by Sauron, that does not mean tehy were born with him. Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgûl. Nazgûl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys.

IIRC it never says when the horses were stolen, but it can't be that long before the hunt for the Ring, as before then the Nazgûl were not clad in robes, so the only trace of them passing would be a feeling of terror.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Perhaps, but we aren't really told, are we?
Oh, I only meant that for the purposes of reading the story and enjoying it, I don't think I want to know about things like those I mentioned.

There is a lot of things we aren't really told of. So have we no right to discuss them? If we only ask questions that can be answered with a Tolkien's quote, than what is the need for discussion? One has only to sit down and reread Tolkien's works. And the discussion will be reduced to threads like "my favorite place, person, quote, etc"
Please, believe me, I mean no offence. Really I don't. You may not want to know about such things. You have the right to feel the way you do. As for me, I am most interested in questions unanswered. And IMHO some of the questions may still be answered logically even if Tolkien had no time or interest to clarify them. Yes, it is conjecture. But: why not?

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

IMHO the Mearas were (please correct me if there is evidence to the contrary anywhere) the Mearas were both rare and even rarer in these days, and the black horses AS raided and stolen rather than given in any tribute were rarer still.

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunedain

IIRC it never says when the horses were stolen, but it can't be that long before the hunt for the Ring, as before then the Nazgûl were not clad in robes, so the only trace of them passing would be a feeling of terror.

About horse theft.
I don't think that the nazgul stole any horses themselves. Most probably they send men or orcs for that.

I think we must distinguish a massive theft of black horses reported before the War of the Ring from the theft of a few black Mearas. I think that most of the horses stolen from Rohan were ordinary horses: they were not meant for the nazgul, but just for men in Sauron's army. Black horses were fashionable in Mordor.

Butterbeer is right that Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them. But still the horses the nazgul rode in 3018 must have been Mearas, their speed proves that.

I suppose that the nazgul were lucky if they could obtain a single black mearas once in a while. Perhaps they kept a small interbreeding herd of a few mearas, and added new horses to it over the years when they could. I suppose the herd was kept neither in Morgul Vale, nor in Gorgoroth, perhaps somewhere near Nurn. Than careful breeding could provide the numbers required.

Now the question of timing.
It is possible that the first black Mearas were stolen from Rohan long before Sauron's return to Mordor (2951). The nazgul lived in Minas Morgul since 2002 and they needed horses to ride.

I believe that each nazgul had a succession of horses during his long life, in the Second and in the Third age alike. At least it is reported that the Witch-King rode a black horse in the battle of Fornost in TA 1975. Were those previous horses mearas as well? We do not know. Possibly yes, if all the Mearas, like Shadowfax, were characterized not only by speed, but by great endurance to nazgul presence. Perhaps ordinary horses could not be trained at all. Black mearas could be obtained (bought or stolen) from Rhovanion even before Eorl met Felarof. Perhaps the Witch-King had a few in Angmar.

After all, Mearas were in ME during the Second and the Third age. "Men said that Oromë must have brought their sire from West over Sea"(LOTR appendices)

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Born and Bred are two different things.

Hey TD,

I think you are grasping at straws here. To be born is to be birthed. To breed is to produce offspring, to beget, usually on purpose and under controlled conditions. Different, but not by much.

If they were only bred by Sauron, that does not mean tehy were born with him.

a) do you think that these horses and other beasts for Sauron's armies and minions were born and raised and trained in other places besides Mordor? If in Mordor, Sauron's presence is always felt as we see with Sam in Mordor, more so with Frodo, but Frodo carries the Ring. If somewhere else, where, and how would it have been kept secret, and how would the Nazgul have trained them?
b) how do you see "born and bred" as being different so that being bred specifically to bear the Nazgul could exclude being born in Sauron's herds in Mordor?

Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgûl. Nazgûl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys.

But doesn't this destroy your point about the Nazgul training the steeds as well? After all, if their presence was in the spiritual world so that they can not be compared to jockeys, then they can not very well be training horses either.

IIRC it never says when the horses were stolen

,

I was just trying to cover all possibilities. Besides the Rohirrim deny giving Sauron horses as tribute or anything else, but that rumor had to start somewhere--perhaps Sauron simply stole them, perhaps Wormtongue arranged it secretly, perhaps....

but it can't be that long before the hunt for the Ring, as before then the Nazgûl were not clad in robes, so the only trace of them passing would be a feeling of terror.

So, the 3 Nazgul in Dol Guldur from 2951 onwards had no way of interacting with the troops under their command, and so were neither robed nor rode horses? Yes, they kept themselves hidden from the Wise and their spies, and were not revealed until 3017, but surely they intereacted with Sauron's troops before that point.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

There is a lot of things we aren't really told of.
And IMHO some of the questions may still be answered logically even if Tolkien had no time or interest to clarify them.

You are so right!
Also, we should bear in mind that even if it very well might be not what Tolkien meant to tell and the another dimension in his book turned out quite independedly, we can't sign-off the fact that, as genius as he was, he might weave it in the story's canvas just for the heck of it.
As he was writing to his son Christopher, it is not the story, which mostly exites a reader, but an untold glimpses of another stories behind it, which fuels your imagination. He wanted his story to be an inspiration for many people’s imagination, and, as we can see now, he greatly succeeded in it.

Originally Posted by gordis

Perhaps they kept a small interbreeding herd of a few mearas, and added new horses to it over the years when they could.

Some species cann't breed in captivity, and when we were talking about Mearas, such free-willed and noble horses, we know that they would hardly endure to be in confined space. So, I think that Nazgul Mearas was really one of the kind. Probable are being captured while colts and slowly trained to tolerate the Ringwraith.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by gordis

There is a lot of things we aren't really told of. So have we no right to discuss them?

Nice speech. I mean that, much of what you said I agree with, else I wouldn't be here.

HOWEVER, I invite you to go back and look at the context in which I made the comment. Pytt suggested that the WK had a psychic connection with his flying beast so that the beast could be called to the battlefield from some distance away and still be there in moments. If you have some logical or other sorts of proof to offer such a reading, by all means present it. If you haven't, well, nice speech, but I must say, kind of unnecessary, since all of us here discussing this topic are more or less speculating and discussing things beyond what Tolkien actually wrote.

Please, believe me, I mean no offence. Really I don't. You may not want to know about such things. You have the right to feel the way you do.

Ok, fair enough, though difficult not to take offence. In any case, I will point once again to the context in which the statement was made, it was a fairly specific context, and lets go from there. Its one thing to discuss things beyond what Tolkien wrote, it is another to rewrite what Tolkien wrote.

About horse theft.
I don't think that the nazgul stole any horses themselves. Most probably they send men or orcs for that.

No disagreement there. What general or chief steals his own horse?

I think we must distinguish a massive theft of black horses reported before the War of the Ring from the theft of a few black Mearas. I think that most of the horses stolen from Rohan were ordinary horses: they were not meant for the nazgul, but just for men in Sauron's army. Black horses were fashionable in Mordor.

WHo else do we see on black horses, other than the Mouth? No matter though, what is of interest is a long term breeding of horses. If Sauron declared himself in Mordor in 2951, one can bet that he had already been planning to rise again and destroy Gondor and conquer the rest of Middle Earth. While he struck early because of the Ring, one can see that he had been planning long and in detail: a difficult and time consuming thing to throw a HUGE army against Gondor, have another at Dol Guldur to assault Lothlorien, another on the road to prevent the Rohirrim from getting through, to throw yet more troops into an assault on Rohan while the Rohirrim were helping the Gondorans, to have another attack Thranduil's realm, and another Dain and Brand. And still have a huge force gathered at the Black Gate to face the Captains of the West. That takes mucho planning, and it is doubtful that all of a sudden in 3017 Sauron thought, "Hey, why not put the Nazgul into service? That's the ticket! They'll need horses, mind you...." No, I think Sauron had backup steeds for the Nazgul long before he revealed the Nine in 3017.

Butterbeer is right that Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them. But still the horses the nazgul rode in 3018 must have been Mearas, their speed proves that.

We're still assuming that they horses the Nine rode were Mearas, that they were captured shortly before the War and not long before, perhaps even descendants of mearas captured in the Second Age.

The issue of speed suggests mearas. But the question of speed could also be a simple blunder by Tolkien, or it could be explained by sorcery. I do wonder if Tolkien thought of this: one factor not pointed out yet (I don't think) is that the nine can keep up with Glorfindel's horse in Book I, barely, but they do keep up.

I suppose that the nazgul were lucky if they could obtain a single black mearas once in a while. Perhaps they kept a small interbreeding herd of a few mearas, and added new horses to it over the years when they could. I suppose the herd was kept neither in Morgul Vale, nor in Gorgoroth, perhaps somewhere near Nurn. Than careful breeding could provide the numbers required.

Exactly, and would be far enough away from prying spies too.

Now the question of timing.
It is possible that the first black Mearas were stolen from Rohan long before Sauron's return to Mordor (2951). The nazgul lived in Minas Morgul since 2002 and they needed horses to ride.

I believe that each nazgul had a succession of horses during his long life, in the Second and in the Third age alike. At least it is reported that the Witch-King rode a black horse in the battle of Fornost in TA 1975. Were those previous horses mearas as well? We do not know. Possibly yes, if all the Mearas, like Shadowfax, were characterized not only by speed, but by great endurance to nazgul presence. Perhaps ordinary horses could not be trained at all. Black mearas could be obtained (bought or stolen) from Rhovanion even before Eorl met Felarof. Perhaps the Witch-King had a few in Angmar.

This is a very real possibility, that Sauron, even perhaps Morgoth, had captured some of the Mearas and perverted them to his purposes and to carry his servants. It is entirely possible that we are talking about a long term, age long program of Sauron's to provide horses for his troops, particularly his generals.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by gordis

There is a lot of things we aren't really told of. So have we no right to discuss them?

Nice speech. I mean that, much of what you said I agree with, else I wouldn't be here.

HOWEVER, I invite you to go back and look at the context in which I made the comment. Pytt suggested that the WK had a psychic connection with his flying beast so that the beast could be called to the battlefield from some distance away and still be there in moments. If you have some logical or other sorts of proof to offer such a reading, by all means present it. If you haven't, well, nice speech, but I must say, kind of unnecessary, since all of us here discussing this topic are more or less speculating and discussing things beyond what Tolkien actually wrote.

Please, believe me, I mean no offence. Really I don't. You may not want to know about such things. You have the right to feel the way you do.

Ok, fair enough, though difficult not to take offence. In any case, I will point once again to the context in which the statement was made, it was a fairly specific context, and lets go from there. Its one thing to discuss things beyond what Tolkien wrote, it is another to rewrite what Tolkien wrote.

About horse theft.
I don't think that the nazgul stole any horses themselves. Most probably they send men or orcs for that.

No disagreement there. What general or chief steals his own horse?

I think we must distinguish a massive theft of black horses reported before the War of the Ring from the theft of a few black Mearas. I think that most of the horses stolen from Rohan were ordinary horses: they were not meant for the nazgul, but just for men in Sauron's army. Black horses were fashionable in Mordor.

WHo else do we see on black horses, other than the Mouth? No matter though, what is of interest is a long term breeding of horses. If Sauron declared himself in Mordor in 2951, one can bet that he had already been planning to rise again and destroy Gondor and conquer the rest of Middle Earth. While he struck early because of the Ring, one can see that he had been planning long and in detail: a difficult and time consuming thing to throw a HUGE army against Gondor, have another at Dol Guldur to assault Lothlorien, another on the road to prevent the Rohirrim from getting through, to throw yet more troops into an assault on Rohan while the Rohirrim were helping the Gondorans, to have another attack Thranduil's realm, and another Dain and Brand. And still have a huge force gathered at the Black Gate to face the Captains of the West. That takes mucho planning, and it is doubtful that all of a sudden in 3017 Sauron thought, "Hey, why not put the Nazgul into service? That's the ticket! They'll need horses, mind you...." No, I think Sauron had backup steeds for the Nazgul long before he revealed the Nine in 3017.

Butterbeer is right that Mearas were very rare, only Rohan king's line had the right to ride them. But still the horses the nazgul rode in 3018 must have been Mearas, their speed proves that.

We're still assuming that they horses the Nine rode were Mearas, that they were captured shortly before the War and not long before, perhaps even descendants of mearas captured in the Second Age.

The issue of speed suggests mearas. But the question of speed could also be a simple blunder by Tolkien, or it could be explained by sorcery. I do wonder if Tolkien thought of this: one factor not pointed out yet (I don't think) is that the nine can keep up with Glorfindel's horse in Book I, barely, but they do keep up.

I suppose that the nazgul were lucky if they could obtain a single black mearas once in a while. Perhaps they kept a small interbreeding herd of a few mearas, and added new horses to it over the years when they could. I suppose the herd was kept neither in Morgul Vale, nor in Gorgoroth, perhaps somewhere near Nurn. Than careful breeding could provide the numbers required.

Exactly, and would be far enough away from prying spies too.

Now the question of timing.
It is possible that the first black Mearas were stolen from Rohan long before Sauron's return to Mordor (2951). The nazgul lived in Minas Morgul since 2002 and they needed horses to ride.

I believe that each nazgul had a succession of horses during his long life, in the Second and in the Third age alike. At least it is reported that the Witch-King rode a black horse in the battle of Fornost in TA 1975. Were those previous horses mearas as well? We do not know. Possibly yes, if all the Mearas, like Shadowfax, were characterized not only by speed, but by great endurance to nazgul presence. Perhaps ordinary horses could not be trained at all. Black mearas could be obtained (bought or stolen) from Rhovanion even before Eorl met Felarof. Perhaps the Witch-King had a few in Angmar.

This is a very real possibility, that Sauron, even perhaps Morgoth, had captured some of the Mearas and perverted them to his purposes and to carry his servants. It is entirely possible that we are talking about a long term, age long program of Sauron's to provide horses for his troops, particularly his generals.


I really should be doing my chapter summary....

[Forkbeard]

Et tu Olmer??!!??!!

Originally Posted by Olmer

You are so right
Also, we should bear in mind that even if it very well might be not what Tolkien meant to tell and the another dimension in his book turned out quite independedly, we can't sign-off the fact that, as genius as he was, he might weave it in the story's canvas just for the heck of it.
As he was writing to his son Christopher, it is not the story, which mostly exites a reader, but an untold glimpses of another stories behind it, which fuels your imagination. He wanted his story to be an inspiration for many people’s imagination, and, as we can see now, he greatly succeeded in it.


Some species cann't breed in captivity, and when we were talking about Mearas, such free-willed and noble horses, we know that they would hardly endure to be in confined space. So, I think that Nazgul Mearas was really one of the kind. Probable are being captured while colts and slowly trained to tolerate the Ringwraith.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

True, we don't know when he was going to start, but we do know he was planning it since 2951, and that his arm began to get noticeably stronger after 3000. He sent 3 of the Nazgul to Dol Guldur in 2951, surely he's bright enough to figure out that horses can be killed and do die and that his chief servants may need more than one? And he certainly had enough to figure it out...60 years! That is several lifetimes of horses.

I agree with you that Sauron WAS interested to provide nazgul with spare horses. Ys he was. The more the better. I only question the POSSIBILITY to get enough mearas to train. Probably nine in single generation were about the maximum he can physically get. Olmer has a very good point that mearas could be difficult to breed in captivity. Landscape could also matter: Mordor is certainly not Rohan or Rhovanion. Nazgul presence could also affect their reproduction rate. Many problems are likely.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

…Plenty of time to have plenty of horses for Nazgul bred, trained, and to have had foals bred and trained and for these foals to grow up and be bred and have foals.....and so on. By the time you get through a few generations of horses, you have a large herd, and they of course are going to be accustomed to their masters.

If mearas were so easy to breed, how do you explain the fact that they were so rare in Rohan? Surely Rohan kings were also interested in getting as many mearas as possible!

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I don't know that Gandalf was surprised so much as this was the signal that Sauron felt strong enough to do something, and of course since they were riding north, Gandalf had Frodo and the Ring to worry about. He did after all already know that Gollum had been in Mordor and been there sometime and that Sauron may have learned of the Ring--so he was more concerned and afraid and in haste than surprised.

I think he was not surprised that Sauron made a move, but he was not expecting NAZGUL riding as a commando force to the Shire. At least they were not seen outside Dol Guldur and Mordor for a long time. Gandalf: "It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again."

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunedain

Also I don't really think you can compare jockeys to Nazgûl. Nazgûl were different to others, as their presence was in the spritual world, and as far as I'm aware that isn't true with jockeys.

Good point, IMHO. Jockeys (as a rule) do not inspire supernatural fear in horses . I think a better analogy would be getting a cat accustomed to dogs. The crucial point would be to train a very young kitten. A grown-up cat will still be afraid of dogs whatever you do. So I believe the nazgul had to train very young colts themselves. I was not joking about bottle-feeding by nazgul . Later, perhaps, for an ordinary warhorse training, they could partly rely on underlings.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Its one thing to discuss things beyond what Tolkien wrote, it is another to rewrite what Tolkien wrote.

Please be fair, Forkbeard, where in all this thread was I rewriting what Tokien wrote?

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

The issue of speed suggests mearas. But the question of speed could also be a simple blunder by Tolkien, or it could be explained by sorcery. I do wonder if Tolkien thought of this: one factor not pointed out yet (I don't think) is that the nine can keep up with Glorfindel's horse in Book I, barely, but they do keep up.

Now who is trying to rewrite Tolkien? No, I have nothing against this argument, but I must respectfully point out that you permit yourself more then I did (in this thread at least).

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

WHo else do we see on black horses, other than the Mouth?

Please, here is the quote from LOTR describing the host of Minas Morgul

And out of the gate an army came. All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

This is a very real possibility, that Sauron, even perhaps Morgoth, had captured some of the Mearas and perverted them to his purposes and to carry his servants.

Morgoth could hardly predict the appearance of nazgul much less he could solve their problems with horses . As for "perversion", unlike Mouth's horse, the nazgul horses look normal. I believe it is more the question of training than perversion.

[Butterbeer]

well great GIG guys!

Touche!

(... and i mean that!) ...

just for starters: to be clear i never personally suggested the Naz raided black horses themselves...

I STILL THINK its VERY UNCLEAR INDEED and EXTREMELY SKETCHY to make ANY assumptions that the black horses were Mearas...

and i'll be prepared to argue that to the hilt unless anyone has any convincing argument other then that the Naz thrashed their horses in pitiless urgency one time when we assume Gandalf on Shadowfax did not?
Gandalf may have rested, stopped at an INN, pulled up for a smoke etc: gone a different ruote, had bad weather, been suffering from diahorrea! : ANY NUMBER OF POSSIBLE CAUSES: i do not rate as historical or in any way realiable evidence what Gordis poses originally in the thread that they were Mearas because they were as fast on the basis that he posted earlier: even so as Gordis himself agrees they were rare: if so easy to breed the Kings of Horses: why then did not the Rohirrim the Horse masters with considerably MUCH more experience, history, culture, affinity, nature, nuture, love, respect, horse-based culture etc etc
have Mearas to the orderof Nine at any given time?

Sorry but it's rubbish: Good horses from good stock even with some Mearas blood stock in their genes, trained and nurtured in certain conditions etc , yes:

Mearas To Go (on tap: NO!)


OK they may beto some degree from, or long bred from percentage of Mearas stock, and Gordis is perfectly ok to posit the issue: but lets get this straight here and now: that is NO WAY EITHER A) proved or B) even begun to be uncontessted CANON

I find it odd how peoples arguments on both or sides are contradicting themselves!

Anyways GUYS: great fencing match! Mucho enjoying it:

*sits down peacefully on the side to watch the game unfold and sips his first try of the recommended NURN 2974 (or around there)*

(had a lot of other points but have forgotten them for ther mo' so shall sit it out for a while and take a breather and enjoy...)

PS: check out forkbeard's chapter on the LOTR discussion: it's where the Homies are at: so its a great cross thread 'happening' potential alignment thingy!

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by gordis

I agree with you that Sauron WAS interested to provide nazgul with spare horses. Ys he was. The more the better. I only question the POSSIBILITY to get enough mearas to train. Probably nine in single generation were about the maximum he can physically get.

But you are still assuming that it is mearas we are speaking of. Many factors can explain the same amount of travel time for Gandalf on Shadofax as the Nazgul on their horses.

As for number of horses, mearas or otherwise: say he starts with 5 horses in 2951, 2 stallions, 3 mares. 3 mares produce 3 foals. In 2952, 3 mares are impregnated, 3 more foals. Repeat in 2953. 2954 the mares born in 2951 are ready to breed, and if you can steal or demand any more stallions or mares during this period, well all the better. So say of the 3, 2 were pregnant. That adds another 5 for 2954, and again in 2955. So over a five year period with an original 5 horses, one could breed them to be a herd of over 20. And that's assuming no influx of new horses by theft, by trade, purchase, or tribute.

Olmer has a very good point that mearas could be difficult to breed in captivity. Landscape could also matter: Mordor is certainly not Rohan or Rhovanion. Nazgul presence could also affect their reproduction rate. Many problems are likely.

A) still assuming the presence of mearas. B) what is captivity? There's that lake district Sauron has that looks rather good for horses. Is that captivity?

If mearas were so easy to breed, how do you explain the fact that they were so rare in Rohan?

Who said they were difficult to breed? Their rarity is best explained that the best horse, the mearas, was to carry the king, so they kept the numbers down for the prestige. After all if everyone had a mearas, it would hardly be special enough to carry the royal bum.

Surely Rohan kings were also interested in getting as many mearas as possible!

Whatever gives you that idea?

I think he was not surprised that Sauron made a move, but he was not expecting NAZGUL riding as a commando force to the Shire. At least they were not seen outside Dol Guldur and Mordor for a long time. Gandalf: "It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again."

No dispute that they were not seen outside those areas until 3017, but your original point was that Sauron wasn't prepared for the war and so the Nazgul likely had only horse each. But the fact that they HAD BEEN USED by Sauron since 2951 suggests that Sauron had plenty of time to prepare more than a single mount each for his most trusted servants.

Good point, IMHO. Jockeys (as a rule) do not inspire supernatural fear in horses . I think a better analogy would be getting a cat accustomed to dogs. The crucial point would be to train a very young kitten. A grown-up cat will still be afraid of dogs whatever you do. So I believe the nazgul had to train very young colts themselves. I was not joking about bottle-feeding by nazgul . Later, perhaps, for an ordinary warhorse training, they could partly rely on underlings.

Not so good a point. If the Nazgul are "spiritual" and can not be compared to jockeys, then they can not very well be compared to trainers either. It seems to me that you either have to allow them to be interacting with the natural world or keep them completely apart from the natural world. Indications are the former, and if the former, then its just as likely that they visited the paddocks frequently than that they did the training themselves.

Please be fair, Forkbeard, where in all this thread was I rewriting what Tokien wrote?

It was meant proverbially, not specifically.

Now who is trying to rewrite Tolkien? No, I have nothing against this argument, but I must respectfully point out that you permit yourself more then I did (in this thread at least).

Not really. You draw a single conclusion from the text, I'm saying that given the text as we have it, we have multiple conclusions to draw. We are diametrically opposed.

Please, here is the quote from LOTR describing the host of Minas Morgul

Operative words being CLAD in black, not were black. THe horses, like those who rode them, wore black.

Morgoth could hardly predict the appearance of nazgul much less he could solve their problems with horses . As for "perversion", unlike Mouth's horse, the nazgul horses look normal. I believe it is more the question of training than perversion.

So Morgoth had no one whom he needed a horse for? All his servants had other means of conveyance? And they were all cheerful chappies who didn't frighten horses?

As for "perversion", anything put to something other than its normal use is perverted. That's what it means. The fact that these horses bore their masters when all other creatures (normal ones anyway) quailed, then some perversion of nature is at work whether one of magic, or one of training.

[Gordis]

Hi, Butterbeer!

Just a side note before I start to break your arguments . I am no man. I don't mean that I am a wraith, I am not yet that far gone into evilness , I am no man in the same way as Eowyn…So please use she, her etc when you refer to me. Gordis BTW has the same ending as Erendis, Artanis etc.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

…unless anyone has any convincing argument other then that the Naz thrashed their horses in pitiless urgency one time when we assume Gandalf on Shadowfax did not?
Gandalf may have rested, stopped at an INN, pulled up for a smoke etc: gone a different ruote, had bad weather, been suffering from diahorrea! : ANY NUMBER OF POSSIBLE CAUSES: i do not rate as historical or in any way realiable evidence what Gordis poses originally in the thread that they were Mearas because they were as fast on the basis that he posted earlier:

Nay Butterbeer, Gandalf didn't stop at an Inn for a couple of drinks etc. He was really in a great hurry! Here are the quotes for you:

` "Then I must have a steed on land," I said, "and a steed surpassingly swift, for I have never had such need of haste before."….
Never before had any man mounted him, but I took him and I tamed him, and so speedily he bore me that I reached the Shire when Frodo was on the Barrow-downs, though I set out from Rohan only when he set out from Hobbiton.
'But fear grew in me as I rode. Ever as I came north I heard tidings of the Riders, and though I gained on them day by day, they were ever before me.

The nazgul, on the other hand, were not is such a hurry, they didn't thrash their horses in pitiless urgency, they even questioned people and explored the country on the way, see UT:

Now the Lord of the Nazgûl divided his company into four pairs, and they rode separately, but he himself went ahead with the swiftest pair, Thus they passed west out of Rohan, and explored the desolation of Enedwaith, and came at last to Tharbad. Thence they rode through Minhiriath, and even though they were not yet assembled a rumour of dread spread about them, and the creatures of the wild hid themselves, and lonely men fled away. But some fugitives on the road they captured; and to the delight of the Captain two proved to be spies and servants of Saruman.

So IMHO it is a fact that the nazgul horses were outstanding horses, even if they were slower than Shadowfax.
Forkbeard was right to refer to the other race they had: that with Asfaloth: "The Riders behind were falling back: even their great steeds were no match in speed for the white elf-horse of Glorfindel." Of course Asphalot had to carry only a halfling, while the black horses had to carry tall armoured knights. And still they almost kept up.

Were they mearas? I believe it is very likely. Mearas were rare, but not that very rare: "It was upon Felaróf that Eorl rode to the Field of Celebrant; for that horse proved as long lived as Men, and so were his descendants. These were the mearas, who would bear no one but the King of the Mark or his sons, until the time of Shadowfax." You see the Kings of Mark and their sons rode mearas. So IMHO it were possible over the years to obtain some dark ones.

Shadowfax was unique, it is true "I took the best horse in his land, and I have never seen the like of him.'…And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world. The horses of the Nine cannot vie with him; tireless, swift as the flowing wind. Shadowfax they called him"

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

OK they may beto some degree from, or long bred from percentage of Mearas stock, and Gordis is perfectly ok to posit the issue: but lets get this straight here and now: that is NO WAY EITHER A) proved or B) even begun to be uncontessted CANON

And who said it were CANON? Unless anyone can post a quote calling nazgul horses "mearas" it is not. So feel free to contest it as much as you like!

Now what say you, Butterbeer?
Best,
Gordis

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Forkbeard]

Operative words being CLAD in black, not were black. THe horses, like those who rode them, wore black.



well i agree with that, that was one of the points i was going to make! It does not say all the horses were black: though we may, i feel, assume he liked black horses where possible

mind you i think it obvious that black was the vogue colour for both Morgoth and Sauron alike and they would be valued as such no matter how great or otherwise they were.

this is what we know from the Rohirrim: they took as many of the black horses as they could (note: the black horses! not Mearas specifically: not all that is black does not glitter: not all that are black is not gold! : not very good perhaps but to the point! )

[Butterbeer]

Miss (or MRS?) Gordis:


Quote:Gordis

And who said it were CANON? Unless anyone can post a quote calling nazgul horses "mearas" it is not. So feel free to contest it as much as you like!

BB: I officially declare it Contested!

Now what say you, Butterbeer?
Best,
Gordis

[/QUOTE]

well it seems to me even stranger: gandalf rushes off as if the very wings of mordor are on his back on the fastest steed of the age with all urgency and speed being his very essence and the Naz, dilly-dallying here there and everythere on a sight-seeing trip Via tharbad etc CAN STILL DO THE SAME DISTANCE IN A VERY CLOSE TIME????????? as specified as your reasion that they must be mearas in the first instance!

excuse me but something is very obviouslythen wrong here: and therefore it is proof positive we cannot take this as accurate historical evidence that the horses were close to or necessarily on a par with the mearas: i'm not saying they could not have been: just disputing the evidence given that they were!


Best
BB

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

well it seems to me even stranger: gandalf rushes off as if the very wings of mordor are on his back on the fastest steed of the age with all urgency and speed being his very essence and the Naz, dilly-dallying here there and everythere on a sight-seeing trip Via tharbad etc CAN STILL DO THE SAME DISTANCE IN A VERY CLOSE TIME????????? as specified as your reasion that they must be mearas in the first instance!
excuse me but something is very obviouslythen wrong here: and therefore it is proof positive we cannot take this as accurate historical evidence that the horses were close to or necessarily on a par with the mearas: i'm not saying they could not have been: just disputing the evidence given that they were!

Well, the nazgul were on 2 months long sight-seeing trip in the vales of Anduin in summer. In September they were sent to the Shire and were told that speed not secrecy was important. So they did hurry, but perhaps not as much as Gandalf who was far behind. And they made it in good time, perhaps they took half a day more than Gandalf.
I feel you just hate the idea that nz horses may be mearas.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

As for number of horses, mearas or otherwise: say he starts with 5 horses in 2951, 2 stallions, 3 mares. 3 mares produce 3 foals. In 2952, 3 mares are impregnated, 3 more foals. Repeat in 2953. 2954 the mares born in 2951 are ready to breed, and if you can steal or demand any more stallions or mares during this period, well all the better. So say of the 3, 2 were pregnant. That adds another 5 for 2954, and again in 2955. So over a five year period with an original 5 horses, one could breed them to be a herd of over 20. And that's assuming no influx of new horses by theft, by trade, purchase, or tribute.

Wonderful! At this rate we can soon have all Mordorian cavalry on Mearas! Gordis jumps happily and screeches from pure joy
Unfortunately, if we are speaking about mearas, than we must remember that they had the same lifespan as men (see the quote in my previous post), so the 3 year old mares will be hardly ready to breed. And how about foal mortality in Mordor conditions? And what if the horses after close acquaintance with the nazgul die? Or had only stillborn foals? And so on and so on - conjecture upon conjecture .

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

B) what is captivity? There's that lake district Sauron has that looks rather good for horses. Is that captivity?

Yes, IMHO it is. I believe Nurnen is not that good for horses: "great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen". So no running free across wide plains or green grass. Another more or less relevant quote: : Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror" (of the Morgul Lord)

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Their rarity is best explained that the best horse, the mearas, was to carry the king, so they kept the numbers down for the prestige. After all if everyone had a mearas, it would hardly be special enough to carry the royal bum.

So you say that Rohan kings would not want to have all their Riders on Mearas just because of silly pride? That seems a poor argument to me.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

No dispute that they were not seen outside those areas until 3017, but your original point was that Sauron wasn't prepared for the war and so the Nazgul likely had only horse each. But the fact that they HAD BEEN USED by Sauron since 2951 suggests that Sauron had plenty of time to prepare more than a single mount each for his most trusted servants.

Yes I still believe that Sauron was not fully prepared for the war, he started earlier than he wanted. There are a few quotes to support this.
What had the nazgul been used for? Not as errand-boys for sure. Yes, Khamul+1 or 2 were transferred to Dol Guldur. One of them was a messenger circulating between DG and Mordor. This one may have had a spare steed. The rest remained in Minas Morgul.
And, yes, Sauron had time but probably he lacked the means.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Not so good a point. If the Nazgul are "spiritual" and can not be compared to jockeys, then they can not very well be compared to trainers either. It seems to me that you either have to allow them to be interacting with the natural world or keep them completely apart from the natural world. Indications are the former, and if the former, then its just as likely that they visited the paddocks frequently than that they did the training themselves.

I am afraid you have missed my point entirely. I have never questioned the nazgul ability to interact with the physical world. The nazgul cannot be compared to jockeys not because they are "spiritual" and jockeys are "matherial" but because (unlike jockeys) the nazgul inspire supernatural fear to normal living creatures (geese, horses, dogs and men).

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

You draw a single conclusion from the text, I'm saying that given the text as we have it, we have multiple conclusions to draw. We are diametrically opposed..

. Diametrically, eh? I am aware of several possible conclusions. Let us look at them. In this case (speed of nazgul horses vs. Shadowfax) you suggest three:
1. the horses are mearas 2.blunder by Tolkien 3. sorcery.
My primary conclusion was "they were outstanding horses, possibly mearas".
I don't like No.2, sorry. I believe that there must be some constant singposts of the story so I never question the entries in the Tale of Years. I think nobody does, even Olmer with his challenging theories .
3. Sorcery? Seems unlikely to me. Of course, the Witch-King was a powerful sorcerer, but hardly surpassed Gandalf. Gandalf was a maia and a magician but still he had to use physical means - a swift horse - to get from Rohan to the Shire in a great hurry. Were sorcery helpful, he could have taken any horse and made it run as fast as Shadowfax.
So to me only one conclusion seems likely and I try to defend it.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Operative words being CLAD in black, not were black. THe horses, like those who rode them, wore black.

You think they were white horses? BTW in the quote it is not said explicitly that the Witch-King's horse was black. But it was, as we know from other sources.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

So Morgoth had no one whom he needed a horse for? All his servants had other means of conveyance? And they were all cheerful chappies who didn't frighten horses? .

He had no nazgul for sure. Barlogs to my knowledge didn't ride horses .Orcs and trolls and dragons hardly did either . Sauron in fair form could be as neutral to horses as wizards. So who were those chappies who did frighten horses?

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

As for "perversion", anything put to something other than its normal use is perverted. That's what it means. The fact that these horses bore their masters when all other creatures (normal ones anyway) quailed, then some perversion of nature is at work whether one of magic, or one of training.

Then you can call lions and tigers working in a circus "perverted".