Dorothy Sayers: Detective novelist and creator of Lord Peter Wimsey

Mercutio · 11-19-2003, 07:17 PM

This is a new thread dedicated to Dorothy Sayers and the books she wrote, where we can discuss specifically but not limited to those with the Lord Peter Wimsey (and Harriet Vane).

Mercutio · 11-19-2003, 07:27 PM

If you haven't read any of these books, I highly recommend them. They are murder mysteries that take place in the beginning of the 20th century in, usually, England. The main character, Lord Peter Wimsey, and his butler Bunter are absolutely fabulous. In my opinion, Sayer's best book was the Nine Tailors and the longest (but still extremely good) was Gaudy Night. If you do decide to read these, you should start with Whose Body or The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club. They may not be quite like the Nine Tailors, but that one is pretty hard and complicated reading. Try to read those containing Harriet Vane in order beginning with Strong Poison, then Gaudy Night, and then Busman's Honeymoon. There is another involving her, Have his Carcase that can be read anytime after Strong Poison.

An excellent website that lists the books chronologically and gives brief reviews on all of them is: http://www.spies.com/~rawdon/books/mystery/sayers.html

Hope someone takes up on this idea!
Mercutio

Daisy Baggins · 11-20-2003, 08:39 PM

I've read all of the Lord Peter books and really enjoyed them. I think they are some of the best mysteries that I've ever read, and I'm sure that I'll reread them in the future.

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-22-2003, 11:03 PM

I've skimmed a few of the Peter Whimsey's, but my main knowledge of them is a fairly old adaptation shown on PBS. How would those who know DS better compare her work to Agatha Christie's, since I believe they wrote/and set their tales in about the same time period? I've liked AC since I had to read "Ten Little Indians" in highschool. Also, I really like the movie adaptation "Death on the Nile."

Daisy Baggins · 11-24-2003, 01:20 AM

I like both Agatha Christie's and Dorothy Sayers' works. Agatha Christe's works have a wider following, but I think Sayers' work is of a higher literary quality. I think that it is better written and more interesting to read.

cee2lee2 · 11-28-2003, 10:24 PM

Mercutio, thank you for the link.

I'm a Sayers fan from waaay back. Was introduced to her books in a Christian Lit class my sophomore year in college. We also read some CS Lewis, Tolkien and Williams. Apparently, though not an "official" Inkling, she was on the periphery of the group.

The Lord Peter Wimsey books are on my short list of stories I reread every year or so. I especially like the Wimsey/Vane books showing the development of a relationship between 2 intelligent and honest adults. Gaudy Night and Busman's Honeymoon are the 2 I like best, but all of the books are definitely worth reading.

I like Agatha Christie also, but more for the mystery. Sayers has both the mystery and character development.

Mercutio · 11-30-2003, 08:15 PM

What else did you read in Christian Lit? Sounds like an interesting class. Was this at a Christian college? I've read a few articles on the Inklings; haven't read all of them, though. If you want i can direct you to a bunch of really good articles on J.R.R. Tolkien and/or Lord of the Rings written from a Christian perspective about Christian ideas. No matter what people try to say, LoTR is definitley Christian.

Mercutio

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-30-2003, 08:34 PM

originally posted by Mercutio
I've read a few articles on the Inklings; haven't read all of them, though. If you want i can direct you to a bunch of really good articles on J.R.R. Tolkien and/or Lord of the Rings written from a Christian perspective about Christian ideas. No matter what people try to say, LoTR is definitley Christian.
_____________________________________-

There's a biography of the Inklings by Humphrey Carpenter, cleverly titled The Inklings but it may be out of print. I have a paperback copy printed 1978.
Also, if you haven't read it, there's a brief account in Humphrey Carpenter's Tolkien biography of his part in bringing CSL back to Christianity.

Also, I've always thought there was something hopeful, sad, touching, etc. about the way an Ulster Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Anglican (I think Charles Williams was) interacted, were sympathetic, were good friends, but never seemed able to be entirely on the same wavelength.

cee2lee2 · 12-01-2003, 07:45 PM

Mercutio, the class was at a Christian college but I honestly can't remember what else we read. It was about 30 years ago.

Attalus · 12-12-2003, 03:47 PM

I love all of the Lord Peter novels, not so much the short stories. My absolute fave is Busman's Honeymoon, which I have read about 20+ times, with Gaudy Night second. Boy was I shocked when I read in Tolkien's Letters that he disliked DLS and Gaudy Night both.

Mercutio · 12-15-2003, 11:54 PM

How could Tolkien dislike Sayers? Wasn't she sort of an honorary Inkling (joined them on occassion to discuss whatever they discussed...)

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-16-2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Mercutio
How could Tolkien dislike Sayers? Wasn't she sort of an honorary Inkling (joined them on occassion to discuss whatever they discussed...)
_________________________________________
He didn't dislike her. He liked the first Peter Whimsey's but not the later ones, esp. Gaudy Night.
As for the Inklings:

Quote:

Dorothy Sayers was also impressed by lewis's writings on Christianity, and she wrote to him to say so. "She was the first person of importance who ever wrote me a fan-letter," he recalled and he added, "I liked her, originally, because she liked me; later, for the extraordinary zest and edge of her conversation- as I like a high wind." She did not, however, come to any meeting of the Inklings. No woman ever did. She never met our own club," Lewis said, and probably never knew of its existence." Indeed the Inklings did not approve of all her work. Lewis and Tolkien greatly admired The Man Born to be King; Lewis said he thought it "has edified us in this country more than anything for a long time." Lewis also considered her Mind of the Maker "good on the whole". But when as a result of this enthusiasm he tried her Oxford detective story Gaudy Night he "didn't like it at all"; while Tolkien, while he liked Dorothy Sayers personally, wrote of it and its hero Lord Peter Whimsey: "I could not stand Gaudy Night. I followed P. Whimsey from his attractive beginnings so far, by which time I conceived a loathing for him not surpassed by any other character in literature known to me, unless by his Harriet."

The Inklings, by Humphrey Carpenter, p. 208-209.

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-16-2003, 01:13 PM

(post mistakenly repeated, so repeat mesage was deleted).

(tried deleting post, but "Delete Post" wouldn't work.)

Mercutio · 04-26-2004, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daisy Baggins
I like both Agatha Christie's and Dorothy Sayers' works. Agatha Christe's works have a wider following, but I think Sayers' work is of a higher literary quality. I think that it is better written and more interesting to read.

Same here. I just started reading some of Christe's novels.

Sayer's works are more "deep", for lack of a better term...oh wait....Complex I'd say.

I also like better that Sayer's books all focus almost all on what Lord Peter Wimsey is doing, seeing, hearing, etc, where Christe's jump around from one person to another.

Count Comfect · 04-27-2004, 12:21 AM

I would say hands down that I enjoy Sayers much more than Christie... and that Sayers' mysteries are much more intriguing (and Lord Peter is sooo well developed). For some reason, against my will I keep coming back to Have His Carcass as favorite... even though it gave me nightmares as a younger child.
Harriet Vane is excellent too, but I think Lord Peter is (to use an anachronism for Sayers' time) da bomb.

Forkbeard · 05-02-2004, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Count Comfect
I would say hands down that I enjoy Sayers much more than Christie... and that Sayers' mysteries are much more intriguing (and Lord Peter is sooo well developed). For some reason, against my will I keep coming back to Have His Carcass as favorite... even though it gave me nightmares as a younger child.
Harriet Vane is excellent too, but I think Lord Peter is (to use an anachronism for Sayers' time) da bomb.

I love Sayers as well, and Peter. Gosh, I'm going to have to go back and reread some of those this summer! Christie's plots tend to be more complex and twisted, her characters however always seem cardboard to me. They are merely chess pieces. Sayers' characters on the other hand are not; they are living people and have captivated their audience. Too little appreciation is given them I think.

While we're on the subject of detective fiction contemporary with Sayers.....anyone here read any Margery Allingham?

And what is your favorite Wimsey novel? (Someone already said Have His Carcass)

Forkbeard

cee2lee2 · 05-11-2004, 07:26 PM

I've started rereading the Wimsey/Vane books and am having a great time. Finished Strong Poison and Have His Carcase last week and am now starting on Gaudy Night. All this working up to Busman's Honeymooon which is my favorite of the four.

I alwys enjoy reading the Dowager Duchess' diary entries and correspondence at the beginning. And the transition from courtship to married life is well-developed and seems realistic for this couple.

A few weeks back I was at the library and found 2 more books with Peter and Harriet. Apparently there was an unfinished manuscript which was competed by Jill Paton Walsh. And then she went on by herself and wrote another in the style of Sayers. The first was Thrones, Dominations and the second was A Presumption of Death. I liked them both very much and thought she captured the style quite well, especially the further development of Peter's and Harriet's emotional relationship. But I'm not a very careful reader. If anyone else has read them, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Forkbeard, I've not heard of Margery Allingham but will look her books up.

Forkbeard · 05-12-2004, 12:20 AM

Re: The Paton bits...I haven't read the second one, but I did read her "completion" of Thrones, Dominations. It was ok, in my opinion. Naturally the break between where Sayers left off and Paton begins is shattering, but ah well. It was still good to have those beloved characters one more time........

Count Comfect · 05-12-2004, 12:50 AM

I liked Thrones, Dominations a lot - didn't notice quite as sharp a Sayers/Walsh division. Which is partly my swift reading of it (just ate it up).

It's well worth reading though.

cee2lee2 · 05-12-2004, 04:29 PM

I "ate" them up too!

And I agree, it was good to have the characters back.

Planning to add them to my Sayers collection and when I do I'll have more time for a leisurely reading.

11-19-2003, 07:17 PM	#1
Mercutio Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Narnia Posts: 1,656	Dorothy Sayers This is a new thread dedicated to Dorothy Sayers and the books she wrote, where we can discuss specifically but not limited to those with the Lord Peter Wimsey (and Harriet Vane). __________________ Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. Last edited by Mercutio : 04-26-2004 at 05:21 PM.

11-19-2003, 07:27 PM	#2
Mercutio Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Narnia Posts: 1,656	If you haven't read any of these books, I highly recommend them. They are murder mysteries that take place in the beginning of the 20th century in, usually, England. The main character, Lord Peter Wimsey, and his butler Bunter are absolutely fabulous. In my opinion, Sayer's best book was the Nine Tailors and the longest (but still extremely good) was Gaudy Night. If you do decide to read these, you should start with Whose Body or The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club. They may not be quite like the Nine Tailors, but that one is pretty hard and complicated reading. Try to read those containing Harriet Vane in order beginning with Strong Poison, then Gaudy Night, and then Busman's Honeymoon. There is another involving her, Have his Carcase that can be read anytime after Strong Poison. An excellent website that lists the books chronologically and gives brief reviews on all of them is: http://www.spies.com/~rawdon/books/mystery/sayers.html Hope someone takes up on this idea! Mercutio __________________ Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries.

11-22-2003, 11:03 PM	#4
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	I've skimmed a few of the Peter Whimsey's, but my main knowledge of them is a fairly old adaptation shown on PBS. How would those who know DS better compare her work to Agatha Christie's, since I believe they wrote/and set their tales in about the same time period? I've liked AC since I had to read "Ten Little Indians" in highschool. Also, I really like the movie adaptation "Death on the Nile." __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!

11-30-2003, 08:15 PM	#7
Mercutio Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Narnia Posts: 1,656	What else did you read in Christian Lit? Sounds like an interesting class. Was this at a Christian college? I've read a few articles on the Inklings; haven't read all of them, though. If you want i can direct you to a bunch of really good articles on J.R.R. Tolkien and/or Lord of the Rings written from a Christian perspective about Christian ideas. No matter what people try to say, LoTR is definitley Christian. Mercutio __________________ Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries.

11-30-2003, 08:34 PM	#8
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	originally posted by Mercutio I've read a few articles on the Inklings; haven't read all of them, though. If you want i can direct you to a bunch of really good articles on J.R.R. Tolkien and/or Lord of the Rings written from a Christian perspective about Christian ideas. No matter what people try to say, LoTR is definitley Christian. _____________________________________- There's a biography of the Inklings by Humphrey Carpenter, cleverly titled The Inklings but it may be out of print. I have a paperback copy printed 1978. Also, if you haven't read it, there's a brief account in Humphrey Carpenter's Tolkien biography of his part in bringing CSL back to Christianity. Also, I've always thought there was something hopeful, sad, touching, etc. about the way an Ulster Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Anglican (I think Charles Williams was) interacted, were sympathetic, were good friends, but never seemed able to be entirely on the same wavelength. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 11-30-2003 at 08:40 PM.

11-20-2003, 08:39 PM	#3
Daisy Baggins Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 26	I've read all of the Lord Peter books and really enjoyed them. I think they are some of the best mysteries that I've ever read, and I'm sure that I'll reread them in the future.

11-24-2003, 01:20 AM	#5
Daisy Baggins Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 26	I like both Agatha Christie's and Dorothy Sayers' works. Agatha Christe's works have a wider following, but I think Sayers' work is of a higher literary quality. I think that it is better written and more interesting to read.

11-28-2003, 10:24 PM	#6
cee2lee2 Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: 2nd star to the left..... Posts: 566	Mercutio, thank you for the link. I'm a Sayers fan from waaay back. Was introduced to her books in a Christian Lit class my sophomore year in college. We also read some CS Lewis, Tolkien and Williams. Apparently, though not an "official" Inkling, she was on the periphery of the group. The Lord Peter Wimsey books are on my short list of stories I reread every year or so. I especially like the Wimsey/Vane books showing the development of a relationship between 2 intelligent and honest adults. Gaudy Night and Busman's Honeymoon are the 2 I like best, but all of the books are definitely worth reading. I like Agatha Christie also, but more for the mystery. Sayers has both the mystery and character development.

12-01-2003, 07:45 PM	#9
cee2lee2 Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: 2nd star to the left..... Posts: 566	Mercutio, the class was at a Christian college but I honestly can't remember what else we read. It was about 30 years ago.

12-12-2003, 03:47 PM	#10
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I love all of the Lord Peter novels, not so much the short stories. My absolute fave is Busman's Honeymoon, which I have read about 20+ times, with Gaudy Night second. Boy was I shocked when I read in Tolkien's Letters that he disliked DLS and Gaudy Night both. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

12-15-2003, 11:54 PM	#11
Mercutio Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Narnia Posts: 1,656	How could Tolkien dislike Sayers? Wasn't she sort of an honorary Inkling (joined them on occassion to discuss whatever they discussed...) __________________ Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries.

12-16-2003, 01:13 PM	#13
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	(post mistakenly repeated, so repeat mesage was deleted). (tried deleting post, but "Delete Post" wouldn't work.) __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 12-16-2003 at 01:23 PM.

04-27-2004, 12:21 AM	#15
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	I would say hands down that I enjoy Sayers much more than Christie... and that Sayers' mysteries are much more intriguing (and Lord Peter is sooo well developed). For some reason, against my will I keep coming back to Have His Carcass as favorite... even though it gave me nightmares as a younger child. Harriet Vane is excellent too, but I think Lord Peter is (to use an anachronism for Sayers' time) da bomb. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

05-11-2004, 07:26 PM	#17
cee2lee2 Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: 2nd star to the left..... Posts: 566	I've started rereading the Wimsey/Vane books and am having a great time. Finished Strong Poison and Have His Carcase last week and am now starting on Gaudy Night. All this working up to Busman's Honeymooon which is my favorite of the four. I alwys enjoy reading the Dowager Duchess' diary entries and correspondence at the beginning. And the transition from courtship to married life is well-developed and seems realistic for this couple. A few weeks back I was at the library and found 2 more books with Peter and Harriet. Apparently there was an unfinished manuscript which was competed by Jill Paton Walsh. And then she went on by herself and wrote another in the style of Sayers. The first was Thrones, Dominations and the second was A Presumption of Death. I liked them both very much and thought she captured the style quite well, especially the further development of Peter's and Harriet's emotional relationship. But I'm not a very careful reader. If anyone else has read them, I'd be interested in your thoughts. Forkbeard, I've not heard of Margery Allingham but will look her books up.

05-12-2004, 12:20 AM	#18
Forkbeard Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 369	Re: The Paton bits...I haven't read the second one, but I did read her "completion" of Thrones, Dominations. It was ok, in my opinion. Naturally the break between where Sayers left off and Paton begins is shattering, but ah well. It was still good to have those beloved characters one more time........

05-12-2004, 12:50 AM	#19
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	I liked Thrones, Dominations a lot - didn't notice quite as sharp a Sayers/Walsh division. Which is partly my swift reading of it (just ate it up). It's well worth reading though. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

05-12-2004, 04:29 PM	#20
cee2lee2 Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: 2nd star to the left..... Posts: 566	I "ate" them up too! And I agree, it was good to have the characters back. Planning to add them to my Sayers collection and when I do I'll have more time for a leisurely reading.