Celebrimbor or Gil-galad as high king!!!!!

[The Telcontarion]

I always imagined that as noble as Celebrimbor was, just as he was held in high regard in nograthond, even when his father and uncle were chased out, so too Celebrimbor would have been held in high esteem in the second age, even by Erienion himself. I had always fancied Erienion Gil-galad, being as wise as he was, would give over the kingship of the eldar to Celebrimbor to set things aright. So that the eldest house of Finwe, would no longer be the dispossessed and Gil-gald would take his place as the herald of his one true liegelord; ultimately make the words and deeds of Morgoth become untruth and fruitless.

Only I think as great and wise as Celebrimbor himself was, he probably would refuse unfortunately, for he would not wish to bring the curse of Feanor down upon the Noldor once again.

Comments.

[jammi567]

can you make that a bit clearer please.

[Arien the Maia]

did he not already bring the curse of Feanor upon them by creating rings of power to begin with?

even so, I vote for Celebrimbor...just as skillful as his hot grandpa!

[The Telcontarion]

I don't think the making of the ring had anything to do with the curse. Remember Celebrimbor rebuked his father and uncle at Nagrothond, so he was no longer under it from that time. Also LOTR stated that even though he harkened to Sauron in his fair seeming, he remained true and was the first to hear the words of Sauron when he first uttered them (one ring to find them...) and saw the danger and warned the Eldar.

But I fear being wise (or over causious) I do not believe he would risk rousing it again by taking up the kingship in the 2nd age.

I personally believe, that just as with king Arvedui, in LOTR it stated that if he was granted the kingship of gondor much evil would have been averted. If the kingship of the Eldar were to have passed to Celebrimbor, so too I believe much of the evil at that time would have been averted; even though he would have harkened to Sauron sooner and Gil-galad would not have had the oppurtunity to reject him first.

I always fancied that though Gil-galad was king, in the presence of Celebrimbor he always differed; if only behind close doors.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I don't think the making of the ring had anything to do with the curse. Remeber Celebrimbor rebuked his father and uncle at Nagrothond, so he was no longer under it from that time. Also LOTR stated that even though he harkened to Sauron in his fair seeming, he remained true and was the first to hear the words of Sauron when he first uttered them (one ring to find them...) and saw the danger and warned the Eldar.

But I fear being wise (or over causious) I do not believe he would risk rousing it again by taking up the kingship in the 2nd age.

I personally believe, that just as with king Arvedui, in LOTR it stated that if he was granted the kingship of gondor much evil would have been averted. If the kingship of the Eldar were to have passed to Celebrimbor, so too I believe much of the evil at that time would have been averted; even though he would have harkened to Sauron sooner and Gil-galad would not have had the oppurtunity to reject him first.

I always fancied that though Gil-galad was king, in the presence of Celebrimbor he always differed; if only behind close doors.

true...but...IMO the line of Feanor is where the true king comes from. Maedhros only abducated out of curtousy. I still think he should have been king after Feanor! LONG LIVE THE KING OF FIRE!

[The Telcontarion]

Amen my sister!!

[Arien the Maia]

lol!

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Arien the Maia

did he not already bring the curse of Feanor upon them by creating rings of power to begin with?

According to Of voyage of Earendil and the War of wrath, Silmarillion, the curse was laid to rest after the war of wrath.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Landroval

According to Of voyage of Earendil and the War of wrath, Silmarillion, the curse was laid to rest after the war of wrath.

True, but Celebrimbor or Gil-galad.

[jammi567]

Gil-galad because he's more active, whilst Celebrimbor only made some rings for god sake.

[The Telcontarion]

If I can remember correctly, Celebrimbor fought in every major battle in middle-earth up until the time of his death; that is far more active than Gil-galad.

But, you fancy "the star of radiance" and the "scion of kiings " over the "the hand of silver" maker of the rings of power, I feel you!!!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But the house of Fingolfin was now by right the family of the High Kings. Erenion was by right the High King and there was no reason for him to hand that right over.

[The Telcontarion]

Another on the side of Erienion.

[The Telcontarion]

Finally, I can concentrate on happier things.

Celebrimbor fo king!!!!

Your thoughts.

One on one who do you think would win, Cel or Gil. Slite off topic so don't run to much away from the main thread.

I personally think Cel would.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But the house of Fingolfin was now by right the family of the High Kings. Erenion was by right the High King and there was no reason for him to hand that right over.

Well, no reason other than what I stated about him wanting the eldest house of the noldor to be returned to it's proper stature. Certainly, you can see a mirror situation in the house of elendil returning to gondor, when Argorn became king. Even Denethor made the argument that the kingship was rightly that of the house of Menendil, younger of the houses of Elendil. For this reason Aragorns ancester Arvedui's claim for the kingship was rejected.

However no such legal obligation was on Gil to be sure, just a sentimental one.

[jammi567]

Technically, it should be C because he's the great-grandson of Finwe, whilst G is great x 4 grandson. see my point?

[Alcuin]

Gil-galad is High-King of the Eldar in Middle-earth and not Celebrimbor because of the Doom of the Noldor, which may also have affected the outcome of the MÃ*rdain’s manufacture of the Rings of Power:

‘…On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. ... To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well ... The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.

Emphasis mine.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Gil-galad is High-King of the Eldar in Middle-earth and not Celebrimbor because of the Doom of the Noldor, which may also have affected the outcome of the MÃ*rdain’s manufacture of the Rings of Power:
Quote:
‘…On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. ... To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well ... The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.

Emphasis mine.

I am afraid you might be right, however as our buddy Landroval pointed out, unless he was mistaken:

According to Of voyage of Earendil and the War of wrath, Silmarillion, the curse was laid to rest after the war of wrath.

[Alcuin]

I take the statement, “‘The Dispossessed shall they be for ever,’� to mean that the House of Fëanor forever lost its claim by primogenitor to the Kingship of the Noldor. Finarfin became High King of the Noldor in Tirion in his father’s place, and Fingolfin became High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth by the abdication of Maedhros.

Part of the reason Celebrimbor moved to Eregion was to be closer to his friends and allies, the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm. Part of it might also have been to be his own master: while he might acknowledge Gil-galad as High King, he was, in effect, king himself in Ost-in-Edhil. By the same token, when Fingolfin was High King, Maedhros effectively ruled his own kingdom from Himring. (BTW, “Himling,� as it is labeled on the maps, Tol Morwen, Tol Fuin and Lindon are all that remains above water of Beleriand after the First Age.)

But again, I think the words “for ever� meant just that. Fëanor was locked forever in Mandos because of his iniquities. Maedhros, Celegorm, Caranthir, and Curufin were likely locked away for ages, too, along with many of their followers. The House of Fëanor twice shed the blood of Elves unjustly, at Alqualondë and in Doriath, and Fëanor and his followers betrayed the rest of the Noldor and left them to die in the Helcaraxë. If part of becoming king is being recognized as king, it is unlikely that the greater part of the Noldor would have ever accepted a member of the House of Fëanor as High King. That’s not to say that a leading member of the house might not become the local ruler, as clearly happened at Himring, and was probably the case in Ost-in-Edhil.

[The Telcontarion]

Alcuin

It maybe that our friend landroval was wrong for I could not find wear in the voyage of Earindil, was the curse said to have been laid to rest.

Still I would see Celebrimbor king-with a silmaril upon his brow and carrying a sword and shield embued with the light of the other silmarilli. And the three unsolid, radiating with power on the fingers of his right hand. A sword stroke from that hand is the stroke of doom for all evil things.

Mightest of the house of Finwe and his heir Anwacurufinwe, "true" curufinwe; Feanor as he should have been.