Worshipping Aslan or Tash

[Midge]

Okay. I realize that this could also fit into the Theology thread, but I'd like to continue focusing on this one topic, instead of moving on to other topics.

I also don't want this to be a debate-centered thread.

In The Last Battle, Aslan talks to Emeth about worship. He says that because Emeth pursued Tash with integrity and good purposes in his heart and mind, he was really searching for Aslan. Because of this, Aslan took his deeds as service to himself, not Tash. He also says that whenever his own followers attempted to do an evil deed in his name, the service was attributed to Tash.

Since this series of books is an allegory of the Bible, does this shed any light on how Lewis interpreted the verse that says, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. No man cometh unto the Father except through me."

I'll finish explaining later. I've got to go home.

[Varnafindë]

Jesus speaks at least of the dualism - people are either with him or against him, there is no possible in between.

Mark 9:38-40
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
For he that is not against us is on our part.

Luke 9:49-50
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Matthew 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Luke 11:23
He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

A friend of mine used to say (or possibly to quote),
"There is only one way to God, but there are many ways to Christ."

[Midge]

Well, yes... but what of religions which don't have a Christ? Nature worshipping ones, or Eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.)?

Is Buddha an Eastern Christ?

This has always made me wonder.

As to the dualism, I've always thought that if they do not openly acknowledge Him, they get stuck in the "against" category.

Even for those who do not know of His name at all. I had a teacher who once made a good point. If by our silence, they might be saved, would Christ have commanded us to go and share His name?

However, I guess the real argument here is whether those Buddhists (example only) who do good deeds and in advertently follow the commands of Christ... do they, though they may have rejected the name of Christ, as Emeth had rejected the name of Aslan, hearing it spoken only in fear and hatred, do they also have the assurance of paradise?

On that note, what about

Romans 10:9
"That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Those who do deeds which are good according to the Bible and do not purposefully do evil...

But that's not consistent with the Christian idea that every human being is evil by nature and only through a relationship with Christ can one achieve holiness.

Lewis threw me for a loop with this little idea of his here!

[inked]

Lewis is picturing here that ultimate judgment belongs only to God, Who looks upon the heart.

In regard to options in the individual case, there are 3 main ideas, in the Christian understanding from a theological perspective. I merely list them:

1) Univeralism - everyone will be saved regardless of what they do or believe;

2) Exclusivism - only those with explicit faith in Jesus the Messiah will be saved; and,

3) Inclusivism - Christ's work is full and perfect satisfaction for our sins and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole kosmos (world).

There are variations, of course, and degrees of acceptance of these. CS Lewis would seem to fall under (3) in one of its variations.

[Butterbeer]

This is INDEED a Narnia / Lewis thread. If you wish to debate pure unadulterated Theology do it there.

One tenuous link to Tash and Aslan, and a debate wholly NOT about Narnia are clearly separate.

This board is primarily about Tolkien, and here CS lewis. There is a General section for debates like this.


I therefore politely request this be either closed or moved to Theology where it clearly belongs

Merry Christmas all, BB

[Tessar]

The administration will discuss this thread and decide what to do.

I personally do not have a problem with it, but we will come to a common decision. That may take a while though since I believe Valandil is off for Christmas .

[hectorberlioz]

No, this is a Lewis thread. It involves theology, but so does most of Lewis' work. We can't merge half the threads here into the Theology thread.

As long as discussion stays tied to Aslan and Tash, and Lewis' intents, this thread belongs here.

[Midge]

BB, you contradicted yourself... you said this is a Narnia/Lewis thread, and then requested that it be moved to the Theology thread.

And if you'll notice, I sincerely wanted a) no real, in-your-face debate, b) to know what people think this says about LEWIS'S beliefs, and c) the entire discussion to center on the Tash/Aslan thing and how it relates to Christ (or possibly other world religions if applicable). Aslan says in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (I think) that he IS in our world, by a different name and that the Pevensie children must learn to find him under that name. I myself choose to think that he is the Narnian embodiment of the Trinity. Others may disagree, but he's got aspects of all three.

You can't hardly deeply discuss Lewis without getting into some sort of theology. That's something that anyone just has to accept.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

This is INDEED a Narnia / Lewis thread. If you wish to debate pure unadulterated Theology do it there.

One tenuous link to Tash and Aslan, and a debate wholly NOT about Narnia are clearly separate.

This board is primarily about Tolkien, and here CS lewis. There is a General section for debates like this.


I therefore politely request this be either closed or moved to Theology where it clearly belongs

Merry Christmas all, BB

BB - the thread belongs here. The Narnia series is clearly allegorical with strong references to Christianity. CS Lewis wrote it for this purpose. This is so whether you realized it or not, believe it or not, like it or not.

Aslan is every bit as clearly a representation of Jesus Christ. The whole episode of Aslan/Tash worship is presented as a theological possibility (albeit not universally accepted) of how those who worship that which is false, from a sincere heart, will be regarded, in a Christian sense.

When overlap of topics exists, there is often some leeway with just where a discussion belongs. It would certainly be appropriate for someone to discuss Lewis' beliefs in a Theology thread under the GM forum, and give a reference to this episode in the Chronicles of Narnia. It is also appropriate for someone to begin this discussion in the CS Lewis forum.

Since the thread-starter did the latter, and it is an acceptable option, there is no reason to move, or merge, the thread. Doing so - in fact - would quickly cause this specific discussion to get lost in all the other subtopics which emerge in the GM Theology thread.

- - - - -

Oh - and Merry CHRISTmas to you - as well!

[The Black Captain]

The way I read the passiage is as such:

This man, Emeth, may have not followed the ways and teachings of Aslan, but the god that he DID follow he followed, believed and lived by the ways/teachings of his god much more closely and "religiously" than anyone else. Even moreso than those who belive is Aslan as their saviour.

I honestly think (hope?) that the real God will be like this. Some people don't "reject" God by choice, but just because they have been told that THEIR religion is the right one. And if they do a better job at adhering to what their religion requires of them than we do to God, then he will recognise them as more devout follwers and more worthy of Heaven than others. It is not their fault that they believed in another religion their whole life, they had no choice. God/Aslan recognises that the commitment to this person's religion is what he wants from his own believers, so why should this person be punished just because they followed the wrong god? Their faith is stronger than anyone else's!

Aslan recognises this commitment and says to the man that he may have life eternal in Aslan's World because of their dedicated belief in their religion.

[Midge]

I've had a revelation about this passage: Perhaps Lewis stuck it in there to point out to the Narnians (and all the readers) that Aslan is not a local god (which is very important and also an attribute of the true God). He is the Son of the Emperor-Over-the-Sea and has children in all countries. Paul and Christ and even Peter were constantly reminding the members of the early church that Christ died for people of all nations*, not just the Jews. Why couldn't this be much the same?

Let it be noted, I do not believe that "all good people will go to heaven." But I do believe that some people from places where the name of Christ was never heard are Christians. The Bible says that the entirety of creation proclaims the name of Christ so that in the day of judgment, nobody will have an excuse. Why couldn't Emeth have been like this? He was worshipping a different god than Tash, because he was an honorable man and Tash only wanted carnage and blood. But because that was his culture, he had no other name for the god he thought was Tash. Perhaps that is what Aslan means when he says, "I take the service you have to Tash to me."

*The passages using the term "all" in the general phrase "Christ died for all" were used this way. None of them mean that Christ died for all people of the world, but that Christ died for people of all nations of the world.

I had noticed on NarniaWeb that there is actually a thread for this very thing and a podcast as well! Apparently I'm not the only one in this conundrum.