Calormen on screen

[sun-star]

I know it'll probably be a long time before we see either The Horse and His Boy or The Last Battle in cinemas, and anything could happen between now and then. However, do you think there will be any problems with how present the Calormenes in today's political climate? Obviously they aren't actually Muslims, but they do share some characteristics with stereotypical depictions of the Middle East.

[inked]

I don't recall this being a problem with depictions of white slavers or arab slavers in slave flicks. Why should it be a problem that a fictional narrative bears certain resemblances to real people? Should we rather have bug-eyed monsters so as to attempt to avoid all resemblance to humanity so as not to offend anyone?

[Curubethion]

Most wholeheartedly, I agree with inked. Being "politically correct" is by no means the proper course of action to take. However, I am afraid that there could be backlash, even so. Hopefully, Walden won't shy away from the truth of Lewis' vision for the sake of the ACLU...

It is interesting though...notice that in LOTR, the Southrons were by no means Arab-looking, although there was good reason to make them so (them being from practically the same culture/climate)

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Most wholeheartedly, I agree with inked. Being "politically correct" is by no means the proper course of action to take. However, I am afraid that there could be backlash, even so. Hopefully, Walden won't shy away from the truth of Lewis' vision for the sake of the ACLU...

It is interesting though...notice that in LOTR, the Southrons were by no means Arab-looking, although there was good reason to make them so (them being from practically the same culture/climate)

Are you referring to the movie? If so, I think they were shown that way for exactly that reason- fear of accusations of being anti-Muslim.

And could we please stop with the totally distorted references to the ACLU?
If you don't know what they are or what they stand for, find out first, OK?

For one thing, they are strongly opposed to 'hate-speech' bans, and strongly support free speech and religious liberty- I mean, these were the guys that defended the neo-Nazis right to march in Skokie- hardly pc.

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/strwhe.html
When the Nazis Came to Skokie

And ACLU's defense of Christians:

Recent ACLU involvement in religious liberty cases include:

September 20, 2005: ACLU of New Jersey joins lawsuit supporting second-grader's right to sing "Awesome God" at a talent show.

August 4, 2005: ACLU helps free a New Mexico street preacher from prison.


February 2005: ACLU of Pennsylvania successfully defends the right of an African American Evangelical church to occupy a church building purchased in a predominantly white parish.

December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors.



November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas.



November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school.

August 11, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska defends church facing eviction by the city of Lincoln.

July 10, 2004: Indiana Civil Liberties Union defends the rights of a Baptist minister to preach his message on public streets.


June 3, 2004: Under pressure from the ACLU of Virginia, officials agree not to prohibit baptisms on public property in Falmouth Waterside Park in Stafford County.

May 11, 2004: After ACLU of Michigan intervened on behalf of a Christian Valedictorian, a public high school agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries.

March 25, 2004: ACLU of Washington defends an Evangelical minister's right to preach on sidewalks.

February 21, 2003: ACLU of Massachusetts defends students punished for distributing candy canes with religious messages.

October 28, 2002: ACLU of Pennsylvania files discrimination lawsuit over denial of zoning permit for African American Baptist church.

July 11, 2002: ACLU supports right of Iowa students to distribute Christian literature at school.

April 17, 2002: In a victory for the Rev. Jerry Falwell and the ACLU of Virginia, a federal judge strikes down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating.

January 18, 2002: ACLU defends Christian church's right to run "anti-Santa" ads in Boston subways.

http://www.aclu.org/religion/

These, and more

http://home.comcast.net/~aasch/ACLUF...Christians.htm

In the early 90s there was a Supreme Court case called Lamb's Chapel v. Center Moriches. It involved a church in New York that wanted to rent a public school auditorium to show a series of films. The school district had a policy that community groups could rent their facilities after school hours, but not churches or religious groups. The church filed suit and they were represented by the American Center for Law and Justice, Pat Robertson's legal group headed by Jay Sekulow. They won the case, as well they should have. But when the case was over and they had won, Jay Sekulow went on the 700 Club and talked to Pat Robertson and they proclaimed that this case was a "great victory against the ACLU." There was only one problem with that - the ACLU was on their side in the case. The ACLU had submitted an amicus brief on behalf of the plaintiffs arguing that the school district's policy was an unconstitutional restriction on free speech and should be voided.

Another example, and more recent, involves Jerry Falwell. In a nationally syndicated column last year, Falwell discussed a case in Massachusetts where a group of students were suspended from school for handing out candy canes with religious messages attached to them on a little card at Christmas time. In that column, Falwell said that students have the right to pass out religious literature "no matter what the ACLU says." But here again, this was highly dishonest. Not only was the ACLU on the same side in the case, it was the ACLU who wrote a letter to the principal on behalf of these very same students telling him that the suspension was unconstitutional, that the students had every right to distribute the candy canes and that if the decision was not reversed they would be filing a suit. The school reversed its position as a result of that letter, lifted the suspension and apologized to the students.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/1/12/112145/207

But, hey, what's a little lying if it will save souls and keep those donations rolling in?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by sun-star

I know it'll probably be a long time before we see either The Horse and His Boy or The Last Battle in cinemas, and anything could happen between now and then. However, do you think there will be any problems with how present the Calormenes in today's political climate? Obviously they aren't actually Muslims, but they do share some characteristics with stereotypical depictions of the Middle East.

I've been thinking about this for quite a while now...

In my opinion, yes, it will have to be changed/seriously toned down.

But notice that Lewis is not bieng "prejudiced" against the Calormene culture, he writes their customs etc...as bieng WRONG because he meant it to be, but they aren't bad people, though their political climate stirs unrest.

[sun-star]

I agree, I don't think he's prejudiced against the Calormenes - they just believe in the wrong god

[hectorberlioz]

Nevertheless, they resemble Muslims far too well for the ACLU's taste I'm sure...
Though the fact that their god is nothing like the God of Islam will be overlooked...

[Curubethion]

Exactly. Although that isn't quite made extremely clear in HaHB-it's in TLB that Tash's true nature really becomes evident.

Although notice, the Calormenes aren't so much Middle-Eastern Muslim (which could cause problems) as they are Turkish Muslim (which isn't really in the news)

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Nevertheless, they resemble Muslims far too well for the ACLU's taste I'm sure...
Though the fact that their god is nothing like the God of Islam will be overlooked...

What part of my post about the ACLU did you fail to understand?
The ACLU supports freedom of speech. Two college newspaper's editors from the University of Illinois were fired for printing the Danish Mohammed cartoons- the ACLU has demanded that they be reinstated.

There are plenty of Politically-correct groups out there who might end up demanding that the Calormenes in "The Horse and His Boy" be altered because they are too close to Muslims, and if they try to take legal action to enforce this, you can be assured that the ACLU will be out there defending the filmmaker's right to express their own artistic vision- that's what the ACLU is all about.

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Exactly. Although that isn't quite made extremely clear in HaHB-it's in TLB that Tash's true nature really becomes evident.

Although notice, the Calormenes aren't so much Middle-Eastern Muslim (which could cause problems) as they are Turkish Muslim (which isn't really in the news)

Hmmm... what leads you to differentiate?

Though willing to give Lewis the benefit of the doubt, I think he comes close enough to the Western Imperialist POV to at least raise eyebrows. He pretty well thoroughly scorns the culture of the East, and his extolling of "accursed but beautiful " i.e. white-skinned, barbarians, at least edges on racism.

Do I think Lewis was a racist? No- his treatment of Aravia and Emeth show that (though Arvis somehow naturally has picked up those aspects of Northern culture that leave her alienated from her own background)

I do think his love of Northern, Classical and Medieval culture- the elements that forged Christendom- has led him to create a "Southern" Enemy that very strongly mimics Islam.

[GreyMouser]

Actually I was quite surprised that Aragorn's "Men of the West" speech in the ROTK movie didn't arouse more controversy from the post-colonialist feminists- too busy drooling over Viggo, I expect

[inked]

Originally Posted by sun-star

I agree, I don't think he's prejudiced against the Calormenes - they just believe in the wrong god

Yes, but you can see England and Calormen and Narnia from Aslan's Country,
can't you? And, under the Mercy, Aslan makes provision for Calormenes - as is cleary shown in TLB.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

What part of my post about the ACLU did you fail to understand?
The ACLU supports freedom of speech. Two college newspaper's editors from the University of Illinois were fired for printing the Danish Mohammed cartoons- the ACLU has demanded that they be reinstated.

There are plenty of Politically-correct groups out there who might end up demanding that the Calormenes in "The Horse and His Boy" be altered because they are too close to Muslims, and if they try to take legal action to enforce this, you can be assured that the ACLU will be out there defending the filmmaker's right to express their own artistic vision- that's what the ACLU is all about.

Yes, they may be...but it will be the Muslims freedom of speech that they'll be defending...

I'll tell you why: I don't know of ONE case, where the ACLU was there for freedom of speech on behalf of some christian, or christian group...at least none that they disagreed with.

There's something to that though: the ACLU may look at the christian majority as the ONES who "attack" freedom of speech" or whatever (I know its not true that they concentrate on freedom of speech solely) in the first place.

There wasnt TOO much controversy about LWW, but it was out there, esp. at the New York Times columns section...

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Yes, they may be...but it will be the Muslims freedom of speech that they'll be defending...

I'll tell you why: I don't know of ONE case, where the ACLU was there for freedom of speech on behalf of some christian, or christian group...at least none that they disagreed with.

There's something to that though: the ACLU may look at the christian majority as the ONES who "attack" freedom of speech" or whatever (I know its not true that they concentrate on freedom of speech solely) in the first place.

There wasnt TOO much controversy about LWW, but it was out there, esp. at the New York Times columns section...

Yes, there was some controversy over LWW and ROTK...but it wasn't the ACLU. People should stop using the ACLU as shorthand for " groups who hold opinions on questions of politically correct issues that I disagree with".

And since you missed it the first time...

Recent ACLU involvement in religious liberty cases include:

September 20, 2005: ACLU of New Jersey joins lawsuit supporting second-grader's right to sing "Awesome God" at a talent show.

August 4, 2005: ACLU helps free a New Mexico street preacher from prison.


February 2005: ACLU of Pennsylvania successfully defends the right of an African American Evangelical church to occupy a church building purchased in a predominantly white parish.

December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors.



November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas.

November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school.

August 11, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska defends church facing eviction by the city of Lincoln.

July 10, 2004: Indiana Civil Liberties Union defends the rights of a Baptist minister to preach his message on public streets.

June 3, 2004: Under pressure from the ACLU of Virginia, officials agree not to prohibit baptisms on public property in Falmouth Waterside Park in Stafford County.

May 11, 2004: After ACLU of Michigan intervened on behalf of a Christian Valedictorian, a public high school agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries.

March 25, 2004: ACLU of Washington defends an Evangelical minister's right to preach on sidewalks.

February 21, 2003: ACLU of Massachusetts defends students punished for distributing candy canes with religious messages.

October 28, 2002: ACLU of Pennsylvania files discrimination lawsuit over denial of zoning permit for African American Baptist church.

July 11, 2002: ACLU supports right of Iowa students to distribute Christian literature at school.

April 17, 2002: In a victory for the Rev. Jerry Falwell and the ACLU of Virginia, a federal judge strikes down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating.

January 18, 2002: ACLU defends Christian church's right to run "anti-Santa" ads in Boston subways.

http://www.aclu.org/religion/

[hectorberlioz]

Ok...so they have. I'm defeated there...but I'm not completely convinced by them.

[Curubethion]

All your examples were from the ACLU's official page. Of course they'll tout the times they helped Christians. Just keep in mind that's only a fraction of all the cases that have ever existed. Just as many times, they've fought against freedom to wear religious jewelry, pray in school (private prayer), and read the Bible in school.
www.aclj.org
And maybe it's biased, but so is www.aclu.org.

But I really don't want to dwell on this much longer.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Curubethion

All your examples were from the ACLU's official page. Of course they'll tout the times they helped Christians. Just keep in mind that's only a fraction of all the cases that have ever existed. Just as many times, they've fought against freedom to wear religious jewelry, pray in school (private prayer), and read the Bible in school.
www.aclj.org
And maybe it's biased, but so is www.aclu.org.

But I really don't want to dwell on this much longer.

Yes , absolutely right Curu.

After all, it isn't Phantasms showing up whenever there are Creation-Evolution debates in the schools

[inked]

From the ACLU thread #200 (General Messages, Ya'll)

Now here'e a blast. The ACLU wants to limit the free speech of its Board members:

http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/200...m-by-its-board/

the original NYT article is linked in this report.

Oh, where's the Kleenex? I'm laughing so hard I'm tearing up!!!!

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by inked

From the ACLU thread #200 (General Messages, Ya'll)

Now here'e a blast. The ACLU wants to limit the free speech of its Board members:

http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/200...m-by-its-board/

the original NYT article is linked in this report.

Oh, where's the Kleenex? I'm laughing so hard I'm tearing up!!!!

I heard about that!...just goes to show...

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by sun-star

I know it'll probably be a long time before we see either The Horse and His Boy or The Last Battle in cinemas, and anything could happen between now and then. However, do you think there will be any problems with how present the Calormenes in today's political climate? Obviously they aren't actually Muslims, but they do share some characteristics with stereotypical depictions of the Middle East.

I think there could be some people with objections to the movies, but IIRC, I do not think that one could necessarily equate how CSLewis portrays the Calormen with how Muslims actually behave.

I think the primary similarities are the dry, desert climate, and some architecture and clothing reminiscent of a 1940s or 1950s Sinbad the Sailor film. I do not think there were any mention of Allah in the books or any direct Islamic references. I am not Muslim, so it may also be that I am not fine tuned to seeing Islamic references and/or symbolism.

It has been several months since I have read HaHB or TLB, so if some one would be kind enough to point out some Islamic references that I missed I would appreciate it.

(Although I could see how one could try and substitute Allah with Tash if one chose to do so.)

An interesting question would be how well did TC of Narnia sold in Muslim countries.

Did any one notice how the name Calormen implies "Hot" men in Spanish?

Calor = Heat or hot. I think it may have been just by chance, but If CSLewis is well versed in other languages he may have chosen the name as a pun on the climate of Calorman.