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11-03-2004, 05:57 PM
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#41 |
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
Posts: 2,476
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Let's try and keep this going...
What do you think of Lewis' naming pattern for Narnia and the other countries? I've always loved the names of the places - Cair Paravel, Archenland, Calormen (though that sounds like a medicine I had when I was a kid), etc... And "Narnia" is such a great word itself. Do you think there was a pattern, or he just choose names he liked? I know lots of the places within Narnia sound like odd English villages, which I love  *is asking questions at random, don't be mean* (BTW - is it just me that can't read 'Tirian' without thinking 'Trinian', as in the girls of St Trinian's?  )
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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11-04-2004, 01:06 AM
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#42 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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I think Lewis just chose names he liked for the sound of them to convey characteristics. Since he and JRRT were friends and had discussed nameing patterns in relation to shared authors, I think he was careful of them. I have tried reading THE WORM OUROBORUS which has a completely off-putting nomenclature (as observed by JRRT) and I think both Inklings were careful in their choices though by different routes.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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11-04-2004, 04:42 AM
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#43 |
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Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
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One name choice I'm sure wasn't random: Aslan is Turkish for "lion".
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11-04-2004, 06:58 AM
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#44 | ||
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Co-President of Entmoot
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C.S. Lewis wrote "The Worm Ouroborus"?
 I think nomenclature is very important for the tone and setting of the book. I don't like reading names that I can't pronounce, because then you read "and the Shela...brglbrgl... went to the store..." in your head, which throws you off. I think "Cair" as in Cair Paravel, comes from the Celtic (IIRC) word Caer, meaning fort. A lot of places in Wales of Caer in the name, such as Caernarvon.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-04-2004, 11:43 AM
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#45 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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NO, CS Lewis did not write THE WORM OUROBOROS. I fear I cannot recall the author vut I'll check at home. It was a book known to both CSL and JRRT which had elements of "Northerness" which they both enjoyed and defects of a serious nature.
Beren3000, I don't think anyone suggested that Lewis' choice of names was random. I certainly intended to say that he formed them for euphony (sound quality) and to convey some meaning. But I do NOT know of any critic who thinks he had sytematic nomenclature in the same way JRRT did (who was in fact writing to place his invented languages in a context!). TCON certainly does not have the inner coherence and consistency of Middle Earth as wriiten, re-written, and back-written in LOTR by JRRT. Lewis stated that the inspirations for the Narnia books came to him in visual imagery. There is a discussion of the apparent discontinuities in Paul Ford's excellent COMPANION TO NARNIA if you would care to peruse it.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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11-04-2004, 01:01 PM
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#46 | |
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The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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We are not things. |
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11-04-2004, 03:02 PM
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#47 |
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
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Has anyone read TCON in languages other than English? What are the names like in translation?
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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11-04-2004, 05:59 PM
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#48 | |
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Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
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11-04-2004, 06:43 PM
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#49 | |
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Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
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Remember Turkish delight?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?*"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-04-2004, 07:13 PM
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#50 | ||
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Co-President of Entmoot
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Oh yeah. You know, when he first met the witch, I thought bad news. And not just because I had read "The Magician's Nephew". The Turkish Delight scene kind of outlines why she's bad news.
Do you think C.S. Lewis really likes Turkey?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-05-2004, 12:27 AM
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#51 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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Turkish Delight was a specific candy which Lewis used NOT because it was a slight against Turkey the country or the bird! It is an exquisitely, indeed overly sweet concoction. I made the error of a Turkish Delight cappuchino ONCE and I'll never, never, never do that again. So, I think Lewis was using it as a symbol for an appropriate good (sweetness) taken in an improper mode (disproportionate pleasure) resulting in evil (traitoriousness) and (O felix culpa!) redemption.
But I never took it as a slight towards the people of Turkey or the birds !
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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11-05-2004, 09:27 AM
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#52 |
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
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When I was younger I got very sick after eating too much Turkish Delight one Christmas, so that was a part of the story I could really relate to
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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11-05-2004, 10:01 AM
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#53 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Sun-star, would you be so kind as to describe the confection. I rather suspect there may be some confusion!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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11-05-2004, 11:32 AM
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#54 |
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
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It's a soft, spongy kind of sweet which is usually shaped into little cubes. The outside is dusted with sugar and the inside is like jelly (British jelly, not the stuff we call jam). It tastes like it's made of pure sugar, and even the thought of it now makes me feel sick
It looks like this: Turkish Delight but it's squishier than it looks.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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11-05-2004, 12:15 PM
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#55 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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Thank you, Sun-star, for the pix and the descrpx!!! From your testimony, I would gather that over-indulgence in Turkish Delight was a pretty good metaphor for too much of a good thing (a sin of excess with natural as well as spiritual concomintants
) taken at the wrong time (failure of duty) for the wrong reason (selfish versus greater good) in Edmund's case. The difference being you have developed an aversion to it and Edmund wanted rooms and rooms of it!!!  Notice the subtlety of Lewis in this depiction. The Witch says that the magic won't work more than once outside her castle (sin has its pleasure for a season in religious terms), Edmund is not satisfied (a legitimate pleasure taken illegitimately never achieves the imagined potential), and the Witch's definite limitations are glossed over with vague intentions of later satisfaction (the initial glitter of temptation is fool's gold at every point). NOT that I took this in on first reading nor does anyone I think. What would you say?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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11-05-2004, 12:50 PM
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#56 |
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Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Oh, I know Turkish delight wasn't supposed to be a slight against Turkey
I was just doing a free association type thingie!I couldn't WAIT to try Turkish delight! I made it to England one day, and couldn't rest until I tried some - and I almost spit it out! I think it must be one of those things that you either REALLY love or REALLY don't - like peanut brittle. I'm more of a chocolate person, meself.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?*"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-06-2004, 01:32 PM
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#57 |
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Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
Posts: 2,476
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I agree, inked, that it's an excellent metaphor for sin. It also helps keep the story at a level the youngest readers can understand - a craving for sweets is the kind of "childish" temptation which is appropriate for the age of Edmund and the readers!
It's difficult not to feel especially sorry for Edmund, though, when you remember the time period. In World War 2 many sweets were rationed, and the poor kid probably hadn't had anything nice to eat for ages... (Incidentally, I'm curious - why did you say in your previous post "I rather suspect there may be some confusion" about Turkish Delight?)
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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11-10-2004, 02:04 AM
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#58 | |
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Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
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Not my favorite sweet, I have to say. Did I mention that I had my first ale, nay my first drink, because of C. S. Lewis? |
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11-16-2004, 09:56 PM
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#59 | ||
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Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
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That rocks! Was it at the Eagle and Child?
Tell us more...
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-17-2004, 07:45 PM
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#60 |
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Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I've been told it's all in my head
Posts: 916
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I've always felt strange around wardrobes, ornate wooden carved things lurking in corners. I grew up on a cranberry farm on the top of a hill. The farmhouse looked over the Couquil Valley, you could see the Couquil River as it wound its way into the white caps of the Pacific Ocean, just a mile away from our doorstep.....aye, it was more than beautiful, it was grand. My grandfather had built the home and it was in no way lacking plenty of windows overlooking the valley. Two of the bedrooms, mine and my uncle Frosty's, had closets that were built about 1.5 feet from the floor with two sliding wooden doors. Mine was full of ancient prom dresses, my clothes, and everything pretty. My uncle's was full of flannel, overalls, and everthing farmer. Mine was white and airy, his was dark and brown. When I was small I could disappear into either of these closets for the afternoon, lost in imagination as I entered one side and left out the other door into a new world.
While my imagination didn't need any help, Narnia gave me plently of ideas...Thanks Lewis!!
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Last edited by EarthBound : 11-18-2004 at 08:41 AM. |
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