C.S. Lewis' "Space Trilogy". - Page 3

hectorberlioz · 07-01-2006, 11:54 AM

Alas! I have not read them yet...

But I will!

GreyMouser · 07-02-2006, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Why did the Oyearsu (of perelandra or Malachandra) not stop Weston's ship before it reached Venus-perelandra, as the Oyarsa of Mars-Malachandra promised Ransom to do?
That was a humble start to get the discussion going

Hmmm... don`t remember Malacandra saying that, but I`d guess the answer would have to be about Free Will- the Queen must be presented with a choice before she can freely choose to obey Maledil.

ecthelion · 07-02-2006, 09:30 AM

It's in the first book, out of the silent planet, when ransom and malachandra speak, (I think) that he warns weston not to come again or else he will destroy his ship on the way.
But free will doesn't cover it, since ransom comes and takes care of the problem.
but maybe there was more than one purpose, maybe the queen had to learn about evil from firsthand experience. maybe also ransom had to be made stronger for the next phases.
Thoughts anyone?

GreyMouser · 07-06-2006, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecthelion

It's in the first book, out of the silent planet, when ransom and malachandra speak, (I think) that he warns weston not to come again or else he will destroy his ship on the way.
But free will doesn't cover it, since ransom comes and takes care of the problem.
but maybe there was more than one purpose, maybe the queen had to learn about evil from firsthand experience. maybe also ransom had to be made stronger for the next phases.
Thoughts anyone?

Hmmm... but that`s warning against going to Malacandra, which never had the Free-will tussle- In the Cosmc Trilogy, problems of free will are restricted to Humans- and, sadly, after Thulcandra and Perelandra, no more non-Human intelligences- why, I don`t know, except Lewis had some peculiar ideas relating to Humans and animals.

***Rían*** · 07-07-2006, 03:45 PM

What do you mean, GM?

ecthelion · 07-09-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

Lewis had some peculiar ideas relating to Humans and animals.

Yes, like this approximate quote: When the lady took the inferiority of beasts seriously, she elevated them into a higher level".

Is this what you mean by "peculiar ideas"?

GreyMouser · 07-09-2006, 02:01 PM

My copy of the Cosmic Trilogy has been lost along the way, but I seem to recall Ransom being told at the end of Perelandra that since the Incarnation, only humans would be created as ....what's Lewis's word for ensouled beings?

Though this would seem to be contradicted by Ransom's glimpse of the great cart being pulled by the giant insects in the depths of the cavern on Perelandra, and his speculations about different kinds of intelligent creatures which didn't have a lot to do with each other.

Hmmmm... would they have been created before Jesus's birth- and the King and Queen later?

Darn, can't look it up.

As for Lewis and animals, I was thinking more of his references to animals in Heaven- in the Problem of Pain?

Have found my copy of PoP- good thing, since it cost me forty bucks for a forty-year-old paperback Signet- so I'll try and get back on that.

GreyMouser · 07-10-2006, 11:29 AM

OK, Lewis believed that animals were created solely for the benefit of Humans.

"The error we must avoid is that of considering [animals] in themselves. Man is to be understood only in his relation to God. The beasts are to be understood only in relation to man and, through man, to God.
....
The tame animal, is therefore, in the deeepest sense, the most "natural animal" -the only one we see occupying the place it was made to occupy, and it is on the tame animal we must base all our doctrine of beasts."

PoP; "Animal Pain"

("made" in the last sentence has the meaning of "created", not "forced".)

GreyMouser · 07-10-2006, 11:36 AM

Lewis also rejected YEC, and believed that animals, both those existing now and their prehistoric predecessors, had been victims of a previous Fall- the Fall of Satan; and that death and violence had entered Creation long before the Temptation of Man- which seems to me to be somewhat heretical, though I'm no expert on Christian Orthodoxy.

ecthelion · 07-13-2006, 02:36 AM

Were the humans of perelandra (the father and lady) to be given dominion over all the hnau of the planet?
There are arguments both ways, since they say that they are to rule everything on perelandra. on the other hand, the other hnau were completely rmoved from the sphere of experience of humans (ransom), and it seems unlikely that one hnau were to rule another.
So, were they to be completely ignored?

GreyMouser · 07-13-2006, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Were the humans of perelandra (the father and lady) to be given dominion over all the hnau of the planet?
There are arguments both ways, since they say that they are to rule everything on perelandra. on the other hand, the other hnau were completely rmoved from the sphere of experience of humans (ransom), and it seems unlikely that one hnau were to rule another.
So, were they to be completely ignored?

Hnau- that's it!

Good point- IIRC, Ransom speculates on parallels with Earth-Faery, Elves, Dryads, Naiads?

ecthelion · 07-13-2006, 09:31 AM

He does, but I think the conclusion is that they dissapeared, since they were too much "in between" and were not exactly "good" or "evil", and so do not fit in with the more sharply defined modern world. Ransom says that everything is coming to a point, and thus magic is "not good" and so not permissible today.
In my opinion, it is a rather weak way of trying to fill in the gaps between earth mythology and the story. (Always compared to JRR...

)

hectorberlioz · 07-13-2006, 11:39 AM

I just bought two very fine paperbacks of the last two in the trilogy. I won't read them of course until I have No.1, which I'd prefer to buy, but I'm willing to check it out at the library...

littleadanel · 07-14-2006, 05:20 PM

And I'm still waiting for the last two to be published. *bangs head*

hectorberlioz · 07-14-2006, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleadanel

And I'm still waiting for the last two to be published. *bangs head*

Wrong country to live in for CSL?...truly sad

littleadanel · 07-14-2006, 05:50 PM

Actually, it seems so. For the cosmic trilogy, definitely. Of his other stuff - I had to ask for them to be brought out from the library storage... ::duh::

Only the first two were ever published so far - I have the first from a library sale. But, they're being published (anew)!! The second one comes out sometime in autumn.

But I have a feeling i've already said all this somewhere around here.....

(Sooo sleepy. Guess I'm off....)

hectorberlioz · 07-14-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleadanel

Actually, it seems so. For the cosmic trilogy, definitely. Of his other stuff - I had to ask for them to be brought out from the library storage... ::duh::

Only the first two were ever published so far - I have the first from a library sale. But, they're being published (anew)!! The second one comes out sometime in autumn.

But I have a feeling i've already said all this somewhere around here.....

(Sooo sleepy. Guess I'm off....)

Hmm...sounds like the situation here in the US with Lawhead's "Song of Albion" Trilogy. Bookstore clerks act like you're some picky connosieur, when in fact, you're simply trying to get some very good reading in!

***Earniel*** · 08-29-2006, 06:14 PM

"Cosmic Triology" merged into this thread.

07-01-2006, 11:54 AM	#41
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Alas! I have not read them yet... But I will! __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

07-02-2006, 09:30 AM	#43
ecthelion Enting Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Gondolin. in travian.it server5 Posts: 91	It's in the first book, out of the silent planet, when ransom and malachandra speak, (I think) that he warns weston not to come again or else he will destroy his ship on the way. But free will doesn't cover it, since ransom comes and takes care of the problem. but maybe there was more than one purpose, maybe the queen had to learn about evil from firsthand experience. maybe also ransom had to be made stronger for the next phases. Thoughts anyone? __________________ The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! What does "LOL" mean?

07-07-2006, 03:45 PM	#45
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	What do you mean, GM? __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

07-13-2006, 02:36 AM	#50
ecthelion Enting Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Gondolin. in travian.it server5 Posts: 91	Were the humans of perelandra (the father and lady) to be given dominion over all the hnau of the planet? There are arguments both ways, since they say that they are to rule everything on perelandra. on the other hand, the other hnau were completely rmoved from the sphere of experience of humans (ransom), and it seems unlikely that one hnau were to rule another. So, were they to be completely ignored? __________________ The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! What does "LOL" mean?

07-13-2006, 09:31 AM	#52
ecthelion Enting Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Gondolin. in travian.it server5 Posts: 91	He does, but I think the conclusion is that they dissapeared, since they were too much "in between" and were not exactly "good" or "evil", and so do not fit in with the more sharply defined modern world. Ransom says that everything is coming to a point, and thus magic is "not good" and so not permissible today. In my opinion, it is a rather weak way of trying to fill in the gaps between earth mythology and the story. (Always compared to JRR... ) __________________ The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! What does "LOL" mean?

07-09-2006, 02:01 PM	#47
GreyMouser Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 301	My copy of the Cosmic Trilogy has been lost along the way, but I seem to recall Ransom being told at the end of Perelandra that since the Incarnation, only humans would be created as ....what's Lewis's word for ensouled beings? Though this would seem to be contradicted by Ransom's glimpse of the great cart being pulled by the giant insects in the depths of the cavern on Perelandra, and his speculations about different kinds of intelligent creatures which didn't have a lot to do with each other. Hmmmm... would they have been created before Jesus's birth- and the King and Queen later? Darn, can't look it up. As for Lewis and animals, I was thinking more of his references to animals in Heaven- in the Problem of Pain? Have found my copy of PoP- good thing, since it cost me forty bucks for a forty-year-old paperback Signet- so I'll try and get back on that.

07-10-2006, 11:29 AM	#48
GreyMouser Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 301	OK, Lewis believed that animals were created solely for the benefit of Humans. "The error we must avoid is that of considering [animals] in themselves. Man is to be understood only in his relation to God. The beasts are to be understood only in relation to man and, through man, to God. .... The tame animal, is therefore, in the deeepest sense, the most "natural animal" -the only one we see occupying the place it was made to occupy, and it is on the tame animal we must base all our doctrine of beasts." PoP; "Animal Pain" ("made" in the last sentence has the meaning of "created", not "forced".)

07-10-2006, 11:36 AM	#49
GreyMouser Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 301	Lewis also rejected YEC, and believed that animals, both those existing now and their prehistoric predecessors, had been victims of a previous Fall- the Fall of Satan; and that death and violence had entered Creation long before the Temptation of Man- which seems to me to be somewhat heretical, though I'm no expert on Christian Orthodoxy.

07-13-2006, 11:39 AM	#53
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	I just bought two very fine paperbacks of the last two in the trilogy. I won't read them of course until I have No.1, which I'd prefer to buy, but I'm willing to check it out at the library... __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

07-14-2006, 05:20 PM	#54
littleadanel of the House of Bëor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Eastwards. Posts: 979	And I'm still waiting for the last two to be published. bangs head __________________ I'm good in bed - I can sleep for days

07-14-2006, 05:50 PM	#56
littleadanel of the House of Bëor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Eastwards. Posts: 979	Actually, it seems so. For the cosmic trilogy, definitely. Of his other stuff - I had to ask for them to be brought out from the library storage... ::duh:: Only the first two were ever published so far - I have the first from a library sale. But, they're being published (anew)!! The second one comes out sometime in autumn. But I have a feeling i've already said all this somewhere around here..... (Sooo sleepy. Guess I'm off....) __________________ I'm good in bed - I can sleep for days

08-29-2006, 06:14 PM	#58
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	"Cosmic Triology" merged into this thread. __________________ We are not things.

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