Was LOTR JRRT's response to WW I/II ?

paulbaggins · 04-11-2005, 05:56 PM

I wonder if Prof. Tolkien was not writting this series of books as a reaction first to his experiences in WW I , which saw most of his classmates killed and secondly to WW II which was even more random in its awfulness.
Some of the passages showing the attacks on Rohan & Gondor evoke images of the efugees feeing in Europe in both world wars and as recently as the former Yugoslavia. And Frodo's feeling that he saved the Shire, but not for himself wel that sounds like a lot of returned veterans from any war any century.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 04-11-2005, 07:21 PM

tolkien himself said this was not the case, but was in fact the way he disliked the loss of nature in favour of machinery [ref to: Saruman & Ents]

**Nurvingiel** · 04-12-2005, 08:01 AM

I'm sure Tolkien's experiences and values influenced his writing. I think you have a good point there Paul Baggins.

(That doesn't mean it was alegorical, but you're not saying that anyway.

)

inked · 04-12-2005, 09:26 AM

Tolkien began the work before he went to WWI (see LETTERS). He specifically repudiates the concept of the LOTR being a response to either WW. Those wars were in point of fact the mere continuation of the primal disruption of creation (in the subcreated ME) by Melkor as expressed in the primary world. Thus the "applicability" is there, as Tolkien would and did say.
But the creative process in which he engaged before, during, and after WWI, and before, during, and after WWII were engendered by his love of languages and desire to place them in a context.

No doubt the experiences he underwent influenced his work consciously and unconsciously as does every author's life experience. But Tolkien denies an explicit rendering of these life events as the sole cause or impetus. And it is very telling in his life that he was at pains to refute such a simplistic approach by critics of his day. One must remember that he and CS Lewis both repudiated the concept of critics that the author's life was the be-all and end-all of understanding a work (see "The Personal Heresy" by CS Lewis for a clear formulation of this rejection). Both these men thought the world of ideas was best communicated in some forms as myth and fairie (see "On Fairy Stories" by Tolkien and Lewis' thoughts in ESSAYS PRESENTED TO CHARLES WILLIAMS edited by CS Lewis, a festschrift to Charles Williams).

paulbaggins · 04-12-2005, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Tolkien began the work before he went to WWI (see LETTERS). He specifically repudiates the concept of the LOTR being a response to either WW. Those wars were in point of fact the mere continuation of the primal disruption of creation (in the subcreated ME) by Melkor as expressed in the primary world. Thus the "applicability" is there, as Tolkien would and did say.
But the creative process in which he engaged before, during, and after WWI, and before, during, and after WWII were engendered by his love of languages and desire to place them in a context.

No doubt the experiences he underwent influenced his work consciously and unconsciously as does every author's life experience. But Tolkien denies an explicit rendering of these life events as the sole cause or impetus. And it is very telling in his life that he was at pains to refute such a simplistic approach by critics of his day. One must remember that he and CS Lewis both repudiated the concept of critics that the author's life was the be-all and end-all of understanding a work (see "The Personal Heresy" by CS Lewis for a clear formulation of this rejection). Both these men thought the world of ideas was best communicated in some forms as myth and fairie (see "On Fairy Stories" by Tolkien and Lewis' thoughts in ESSAYS PRESENTED TO CHARLES WILLIAMS edited by CS Lewis, a festschrift to Charles Williams).

All of you are right. I of course come to this looking at the story with the glasses of my Vietnam era generation. I see things in LOTR that apply to any and all wars .
But of course Tolkien did not start this as allegory the book just grew and that we see what do is a credit to Tolkiens genius

Spock · 04-16-2005, 10:21 AM

Each reader views a tome through his own lifes experience. It is part of what makes each book personal. I agree with PB and Inked and both are true to the facts as we know them from Tolkein and his son.

ItalianLegolas · 04-16-2005, 08:53 PM

I've always had a sneaking suspicion that A-bombs and certain rings are related...

04-11-2005, 05:56 PM	#1
paulbaggins Sapling Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Victoria BC Canada Posts: 14	Was LOTR JRRT's response to WW I/II ? I wonder if Prof. Tolkien was not writting this series of books as a reaction first to his experiences in WW I , which saw most of his classmates killed and secondly to WW II which was even more random in its awfulness. Some of the passages showing the attacks on Rohan & Gondor evoke images of the efugees feeing in Europe in both world wars and as recently as the former Yugoslavia. And Frodo's feeling that he saved the Shire, but not for himself wel that sounds like a lot of returned veterans from any war any century. __________________ [B]The road goes ever on and on down from the house where it began Last edited by paulbaggins : 04-11-2005 at 05:58 PM. Reason: mispeslling

04-12-2005, 09:26 AM	#4
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Tolkien began the work before he went to WWI (see LETTERS). He specifically repudiates the concept of the LOTR being a response to either WW. Those wars were in point of fact the mere continuation of the primal disruption of creation (in the subcreated ME) by Melkor as expressed in the primary world. Thus the "applicability" is there, as Tolkien would and did say. But the creative process in which he engaged before, during, and after WWI, and before, during, and after WWII were engendered by his love of languages and desire to place them in a context. No doubt the experiences he underwent influenced his work consciously and unconsciously as does every author's life experience. But Tolkien denies an explicit rendering of these life events as the sole cause or impetus. And it is very telling in his life that he was at pains to refute such a simplistic approach by critics of his day. One must remember that he and CS Lewis both repudiated the concept of critics that the author's life was the be-all and end-all of understanding a work (see "The Personal Heresy" by CS Lewis for a clear formulation of this rejection). Both these men thought the world of ideas was best communicated in some forms as myth and fairie (see "On Fairy Stories" by Tolkien and Lewis' thoughts in ESSAYS PRESENTED TO CHARLES WILLIAMS edited by CS Lewis, a festschrift to Charles Williams). __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

04-16-2005, 10:21 AM	#6
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Each reader views a tome through his own lifes experience. It is part of what makes each book personal. I agree with PB and Inked and both are true to the facts as we know them from Tolkein and his son. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

04-16-2005, 08:53 PM	#7
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	I've always had a sneaking suspicion that A-bombs and certain rings are related... __________________ What was lost is now found.

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04-11-2005, 07:21 PM	#2
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	tolkien himself said this was not the case, but was in fact the way he disliked the loss of nature in favour of machinery [ref to: Saruman & Ents]