Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Originally Posted by CAB

Personally I don’t think the Nazgul remaining together was very likely despite the advantages. Put yourself in their shoes. You are a mighty leader and have things your way most of your life, then you are turned into a wraith and are forced to work for someone else in the company of eight similarly unlucky individuals. When you become free would you prefer to remain with these reminders of your servitude and bitterness who were all used to having their own way, or to return to your home and try to recapture some of your old life and glory? All the Nazgul may have attempted to, or succeeded in, essentially retaking their old lordships. If they were in the East and South we wouldn’t expect to hear of these events. Of course they would be much more vulnerable to Sauron in these areas than the Witch King was in the West.

Yeah, I guess all this makes sense. They probably got sick of seeing one another for thousands of yrs.
WK- Khamul, geez, will you take off your ring or at least put a robe on, you're hideous. I hate this place. *kicks unsuspecting Orc out of the highest window of Minus Morgul*

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think by 1300, when the WK came to Angmar, he had a very good idea who was hiding in Mirkwood. So he established his capital not in the hospitable lands of the upper Vales of Anduin (which were also part of Angmar), not near Mount Gundabad, the greatest orc stronghold of old, but in the wastes of the North, on the other side of the Misty Mountains.

This makes sense also. Do you think he might have sent word to the others that Sauron had returned, if they didn't already know, and maybe made some sort of plan to deal with him and this is how the first couple got 'captured'?

Edit- I thought of something else I wanted to ask. How hard do you think it would be to 'take' a ring from one of the Nazgul? Or even to trap 'em. It's not like they could put a ring on a string and wait for a Nazgul to come by and go "Oh, look, a ring." and then pounce on him and hold him down why an orc or something takes it off, right? Just woundering.

[Gordis]

Nazgul visibility/invisibility is a most interesting question.

Originally Posted by CAB

If Gordis’s theory concerning the Nazguls’ ability to appear as normal people is correct, they may have even followed this advice. I personally question this idea though. Could you tell us how you reached this conclusion concerning this ability of the (ringed) Nazgul Gordis? Is there more to it than the Nazguls’ seeming inactivity during the Second Age?

No, unfortunately, apart from that, the fact that the WK in Carn Dum was able to fool everybody for a very long time, and the fact that Sauron was visible when wearing the One, I have little to back this theory up. I think Tolkien himself never really considered this question.

What do we have?

A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later, the dark power will devour him." - Gandalf, "The Shadow of the Past," Fellowship of the Ring, p.56

Does this "permanently" means "both with and without the Ring"? - It seems so.

However, this quote belongs to the early stages of LOTR composition. Its precursor is the quote from HOME “The Return of the Shadow�

Yes, if the Ring overcomes you, you yourself become permanently invisible - and it is a horrible cold feeling. Everything becomes very faint like grey ghost pictures against the black background in which you live; but you can smell more clearly than you can hear or see. You have no power however like a Ring of making other things invisible: you are a ringwraith. You can wear clothes. [>you are just a ringwraith; and your clothes are visible, unless the Lord lends you a ring. But you are under the command of the Lord of the Rings.

So it clearly referred to the ringless state.

In the quote Gandalf warns Frodo of the effects the ring will have on him, if he wears it. Gandalf volunteers as little information as possible. He couldn’t continue and tell Frodo “Sure, when you master your Ring and become a powerful sorcerer taught by Sauron himself, you will be able to appear visible again�, could he? Such fate as the Witch-King’s was impossible for Frodo anyway, so why frighten and bewilder the hobbit even more?

Probably the nazgul ring, when fully mastered, could make the wraith visible or invisible at will, exactly like Sauron wearing the One. The wielder only had to know the appropriate spells. I believe that the freshly-made wraiths, when first assembled in Mordor, had some “Advanced Training for Ring-users� by Prof. Sauron himself. After that, they could probably wield their Rings to their full power.


And now, if I am wrong, and the Rings couldn't make the wraiths visible, there was still another possibility:

The Witch-King was a powerful sorcerer. Even without his ring, he could affect other’s thoughts and perceptions. He could make people believe they saw his face, while a photo taken (if photos existed in ME ) would have shown no face. Even Real Life illusionists are able to hypnotise a large audience - surely it was possible for a sorcerer.

I think that the mortals could be easily fooled by such a method. To remain undetected, the main idea was to avoid wizards, Valinorean Elves and the wielders of the Three, as they could see the WK in the spirit world and so recognise him. Interesting that he ran from Glorfindel. I believe it was largely because he saw himself unveiled at last.

Yes, the Witch-King wore a black mask at Fornost battle. Perhaps it was a metal one, like Dwarves (or Turin) wore, used for face protection from stray arrows (a wise thing to have when facing an army on your own). Another explanation would be that remaining visible (either by means of pure sorcery or by a ring-spell) needed constant mind concentration, the more so, the bigger audience he had. In battle, he simply had other things to do than to think about his appearance, so he used a mask.

Originally Posted by CAB

I think the Witch King came to Angmar to: secure himself from Sauron/anticipated captured Nazgul, gain a Palantir, and claim the Kingship of the Dunedain. The distance between Angmar and Mordor may have been a factor but Sauron had many servants in the East who he probably would have sent against the Witch King rather than sending an army from Mordor.

I agree about the WK's goals. But it was the distance between Angmar and Dol Guldur that mattered, not Mordor. It seems, Sauron never left Dol Guldur before 2060 - probably he was not even fully incarnate before he collected enough rings.
Mordor was occupied and closely guarded by Gondor till the Great Plague in TA 1636. After it, Mordor was left unguarded, Soon some nazgul were spotted in Gorgoroth:

Then the forts on the borders of Mordor were deserted, and Minas Ithil was emptied of its people; and evil entered again into the Black Land secretly, and the ashes of Gorgoroth were stirred as by a cold wind, for dark shapes gathered there. It is said that these were indeed the Úlairi, whom Sauron called the Nazgûl, the Nine Ringwraiths that had long remained hidden, but returned now to prepare the ways of their Master, for he had begun to grow again. OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE

The description of the nazgul as "dark shapes" who caused a cold wind etc. corresponds to their description in LOTR, and makes me think that those were already ringless nazgul. Because with the rings on, they would be simply invisible (clothes and all) or fully visible, if I am right and they could move from one world to another,.

Gordis I would agree with the likelihood of every point you make here but one. I don’t believe it was absolutely necessary for the Nazgul to be in the neighborhood of Dol Guldur to be captured. Certainly Sauron could travel. Probably no one would notice, or at least it wasn’t worth recording, if he vacated Dol Guldur for a month or two, especially in his weak condition at that time. My guess is that his spies found the Nazgul and when he believed the time right, Sauron with some of his servants (some or all of whom may have existed entirely in the “Unseen� world�) went and captured it’s ring. He probably did this with at least the first two Nazgul and then used them to capture the others. I think that the weaker Nazgul, those whose lordships were small or nonexistent, were his first targets. He then would have moved on to the stronger ones finishing of course with the Witch King.

Yes, why not?

And, if you are right, and Sauron DID take the WK's ring in 1975, then he could have easily sent the WK himself to collect the remaining Rings. It took the WK 5 years (1975-1980) to come to Mordor, so, probably, he visited their Eastern realms, took their Rings for Sauron and herded them to Mordor.

Thank you, CAB, for your excellent summary. I agree that the Witch King’s story in the Third Age was tragic.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Edit- I thought of something else I wanted to ask. How hard do you think it would be to 'take' a ring from one of the Nazgul? Or even to trap 'em. It's not like they could put a ring on a string and wait for a Nazgul to come by and go "Oh, look, a ring." and then pounce on him and hold him down why an orc or something takes it off, right? Just woundering.

Pretty hard, I believe! It was hard to take a Ring even from a hobbit.
I can't imagine orcs attacking a nazgul... I believe Sauron's presence was necessary in the first cases. And than the pack of ringless nazgul could be used to hunt others. (I don't really think Sauron used the Barlog ).Perhaps armies were involved, just to get close enough to a King-nazgul.

As for trapping, in principle it was possible, as Gandalf believed that Saruman would try to trap a nazgul in Isengard. But again it needed a maia to do so, so Sauron's presence was necessary.

[CAB]

After reading your post and giving the matter some thought, I think you may be right Gordis.

My first instinct was to disagree because Sauron, like Morgoth, had many Men serving him. Why then would it be important for the Nazgul to look normal to better control their people? (Actually I still don’t think this is completely necessary, but it would help.) But it seems that Sauron didn’t have many, if any, Men in his army during his war to recover the rings in the Second Age. This isn’t plainly stated but it is the impression I get while reading The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales. It is stated that Sauron was turning Men to evil early in the Second Age but that doesn’t have to mean that they were serving him. Alternatively, Sauron might have given the rings to the leaders of powerful groups or nations of Men who refused him. Surely not everyone in the East and South was under his sway. Maybe Sauron’s great forces of Men in later times was greatly due to his use of the rings in the Second Age.

I am not sure about the method the Nazgul would use to appear normal. Personally, I don’t think that the rings’ original purpose (for Sauron) was to make the wearers wraiths. I think this was more an unplanned consequence. Having the ruler of a newly allied nation become a wraith doesn’t seem very advantageous. Therefore I don’t think this power would have been built into the rings. Maybe the sorcery method, using the more general “magical� strength the rings provided (as opposed to a specific power of the rings to give the holder the ability to appear alive) is the best answer.

Thanks for your answer to my question. You have shown me something new about Tolkien’s world once again. I have read many of your earlier threads and have learned a lot from them. Thank you.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

My first instinct was to disagree because Sauron, like Morgoth, had many Men serving him. Why then would it be important for the Nazgul to look normal to better control their people? (Actually I still don’t think this is completely necessary, but it would help.)

Men (both in RL and in ME) tend to be frightened by supernatural beings: one rather quiet ghost (or even a rumour of a ghost) is enough to scare them away. Now imagine that a whole nation is ruled by a wraith. Of course, some healthy dose of fear for the King is beneficial, but some affection and true loyalty is also needed. More so, when the kingdom is just being built and initial wars for the territory fought.
I believe that in all cases, after becoming wraiths, the nazgul had to abandon their peoples and kingdoms and come to serve Sauron in Mordor: to get some training in sorcery and to learn to obey Sauron and the Witch-King their Captain. I am not sure, whether after that period, the nazgul were released to rule separate kingdoms, or they were kept in Mordor throughout the Second Age. Anyway, when in the Third Age they returned to their peoples, they must have been only a dim memory and an ancient tale. Imagine someone coming and telling: "I am the Great Khamul of old returned to you" - that must have sounded ominous enough, all by itself. And if it were said by a scary dwimmerlaik with no face, I believe the population would flee screaming. And let us take the Witch-King in Angmar. There he had nothing to tell the people: most likely the Hillmen or other natives of the land never heard of him. He had to build his kingdom anew, attract mercenaries and other "evil men".
Then there are so many other cases when appearing normal is helpful: spying, travelling etc. I believe the search for Baggins would have been so much easier if they could inspire confidence in the men they questioned.

But even more important is another aspect. If the Rings, when worn, could really bring them back into the World of Light, they would be able to see it clearly, not to wander around half-blind, as they did in LOTR. Actually, if I am right, then the mission to the Shire was the very first trip of the blind ringless nazgul out of Mordor: no wonder they felt disoriented and made so many blunders. Perhaps the Witch-King had perished in such a stupid way because he was unused to fight while almost blind - so he missed Merry?

Originally Posted by CAB

But it seems that Sauron didn’t have many, if any, Men in his army during his war to recover the rings in the Second Age. This isn’t plainly stated but it is the impression I get while reading The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales. It is stated that Sauron was turning Men to evil early in the Second Age but that doesn’t have to mean that they were serving him.

Hmm... I didn't get this impression. Sauron had brought a great host to Eregion in SA 1695: "The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough both to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion. - UT
Sure, all this host had been destroyed, and Sauron fled "with no more than a bodyguard"- UT.
Perhaps, most of them were orcs, I really don't know.

Originally Posted by CAB

Alternatively, Sauron might have given the rings to the leaders of powerful groups or nations of Men who refused him. Surely not everyone in the East and South was under his sway. Maybe Sauron’s great forces of Men in later times was greatly due to his use of the rings in the Second Age.

I am practically sure that you are correct. The Rings were psychological weapons, made to ensnare those who would NEVER co-operate otherwise. I think it is clear that Sauron's great force of Men in later times was largely due to the Nine Rings:

Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race. And when the Úlairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea.-Akkalabeth

Originally Posted by CAB

Personally, I don’t think that the rings’ original purpose (for Sauron) was to make the wearers wraiths. I think this was more an unplanned consequence. Having the ruler of a newly allied nation become a wraith doesn’t seem very advantageous. Therefore I don’t think this power would have been built into the rings. Maybe the sorcery method, using the more general “magical� strength the rings provided (as opposed to a specific power of the rings to give the holder the ability to appear alive) is the best answer.

Yes, I agree - it was just a side-effect of the Elven rings on mortals. ALL of the Rings (all the 19) were made for ELVES. It was Sauron's plan to distribute 9 among Men and 7 among Dwarves. The original design probably included "preservation" allowing the Elves not to fade, but to continue living in ME, enjoying life. The effect on Men was that they couldn't die and leave the Circles of the World- they had become like Elves in a way, only their bodies faded. But the Rings and their properties clearly deserve a special thread...

And, CAB, I meant not the "specific power of the rings to give the holder the ability to appear alive" but just the ring's ability to transfer a physical body not only from the World of Light into the World of Shadow (that they surely could do), but also back: from the Wraith-world, where the nazgul dwelt by default, into the World of Light.


Always a pleasure to discuss things with you, CAB.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes, I agree - it was just a side-effect of the Elven rings on mortals. ALL of the Rings (all the 19) were made for ELVES. It was Sauron's plan to distribute 9 among Men and 7 among Dwarves. The original design probably included "preservation" allowing the Elves not to fade, but to continue living in ME, enjoying life. The effect on Men was that they couldn't die and leave the Circles of the World- they had become like Elves in a way, only their bodies faded.

Reminds me of one of those interesting essays in the HoME books about what happened if humans got to Valinor ... basically they'd be begging for death after awhile, IIRC ...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Reminds me of one of those interesting essays in the HoME books about what happened if humans got to Valinor ... basically they'd be begging for death after awhile, IIRC ...

Strange... what essay is that Rian? Can you be more precise?

I think, whatever it may be, it contradicts both the Silm and the LOTR.

BTW, glad to see you again in the Tolkien forums. You are missed, you should really post here more often!

[Rían]

Yeah, I suppose I should, but I"m still kind of Tolkiened-out as far as posting in the Tolkien threads. I was almost entirely in the Tolkien threads years ago, though.

I found it - it's in Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed", in the subsection "Aman and Mortal Men". If you don't have it, I'll type some in for you

[CAB]

Gordis, concerning your point that Men would be more easily lead by “normal� looking Men, all I can really do is echo what I said before. I agree that they would be more likely to follow a seemingly regular person, but it is not required that a leader of Men be a normal human. The only evidence I have (or need) for this is Morgoth and Sauron. Both of these had many human servants at times when there was no way to mistake them for Men. Admittedly they were far stronger than any of the Nazgul, but this doesn’t disprove the point. Again, I agree that for the Nazgul to appear to be living would be helpful.

I would guess you are right about the Nazgul being able to see the World of Light while holding their rings. Having possession of the rings probably shored up some of their other weaknesses as well. For Sauron’s greatest servants, the Nazgul seem rather pathetic during the Lord of the Rings. This is almost certainly due to the fact that Sauron, rather than the Nazgul, was holding the Nine rings.

I am not really sure what to think about the Nazgul being able to transfer back and forth between the two different Worlds. I was under the impression that, while clothed, the Nazgul existed in both Worlds. If they shifted primarily (or entirely) into the Light World what would be the nature of their bodies? Would they be the same bodies that they had before? If so, why would they be considered wraiths? I don’t really know enough about this to have a strong opinion.



Here are the quotes from Unfinished Tales that made me think that perhaps Sauron had no Men in his army during the first Ring-war:

In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor’s body hung on a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows...
Ever afterwards Moria had Sauron’s hate, and all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.

No mention of Men here, only Orcs...

But as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves...

Notice that this isn’t Free Men or Men of the Edain or Men of the West or Men not in the service of Sauron. Rather it seems to be all the Men in the area. Aside from the Numenoreans, this is the only mention of Men in these battles.

The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed.

If Men had been present in this army perhaps the Elves would have been more likely to take a few prisoners. Admittedly, when Angmar was defeated it’s army received the same treatment, and it definitely contained Men.

No one would mistake this for ironclad proof, but considering these points while also thinking of Sauron’s use of the rings, I began to think it was at least possible that Sauron had no Men in his army at this time in spite of the size and effectiveness of his forces.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Reminds me of one of those interesting essays in the HoME books about what happened if humans got to Valinor ... basically they'd be begging for death after awhile, IIRC ...

I seem to remember reading this. It has been several years since I looked at any of the HOME books. I think the point being made was that humans weren’t meant to live forever and in the type of “glory� in which the Elves of Valinor lived. This is a major theme of Akallabeth and can be found in much of Tolkien’s writing on Middle Earth. I agree that the effects of the rings on mortals is an example.

[Rían]

Here's a bit from that essay -

by JRRT, Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed", "Aman and Mortal Men"
... or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hröa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy...

I remember that bit because I thought it was kinda creepy - a human body running around without a soul ...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Who says man is a rational animal?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I would guess you are right about the Nazgul being able to see the World of Light while holding their rings. Having possession of the rings probably shored up some of their other weaknesses as well. For Sauron’s greatest servants, the Nazgul seem rather pathetic during the Lord of the Rings. This is almost certainly due to the fact that Sauron, rather than the Nazgul, was holding the Nine rings.

I agree that the advantage to see the World of Light and to be free of typical naz-phobias (save maybe fear of water?) is more important than the ability to look "normal".

Originally Posted by CAB

I am not really sure what to think about the Nazgul being able to transfer back and forth between the two different Worlds. I was under the impression that, while clothed, the Nazgul existed in both Worlds. If they shifted primarily (or entirely) into the Light World what would be the nature of their bodies? Would they be the same bodies that they had before? If so, why would they be considered wraiths? I don’t really know enough about this to have a strong opinion.

My impression is that nobody can be sure about it. Tolkien himself was not sure, IMHO.

The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle. Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton!), or the monstrous birds (!). In the first drafts for the scene with Eowyn, she destroyed the Witch-King SIMPLY by cutting off the bird's head! By the way, there the WK only lost his shape, much like at the Ford, and was present again at the Parley (instead of the Mouth) and then even talked with Frodo after the Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Doom. But then, Tolkien decided that the bird was one thing, the nazgul was another- always man-shaped, and changed the Eowyn scene exactly as it is now.

But he didn't correct the "Fellowship" accordingly. Not all of it. .So Radagast's : "disguised as black riders", Gandalf's "` the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.' and all the issues with "losing shape" in Bruinen River are the reminders of the original conception.
And, to my knowledge, he never returned to this question in his later writings. But quite recently, I have found a most curious quote in the Notes following the Appendix to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth concerning reincarnated elves:

The resurrection of the body (at least as far as Elves were concerned) was in a sense incorporeal. But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. If you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will.

To me, it sounds similar to what the later conception of the nazgul bodies may have been like.
I would say (pure conjecture) that the nazgul always had the same bodies, once living, now undead (they never died, or were resurrected). They mostly existed in the Spirit world, but, when they wanted, their bodies were present in the World of Light - only invisible. So they could wear clothes, ride horses and interact with the living. But maintaining the body in the physical world was a conscious act of will - so when the WK was slain, his body disappeared, moving by default into the spirit world.
Yet, I am completely uncertain about all of it. I know, some argue that the nazgul were simply invisible men- their bodies always present in the World of light, able (or even needing) to eat and drink. May be. What do you think?

Originally Posted by CAB

Here are the quotes from Unfinished Tales that made me think that perhaps Sauron had no Men in his army during the first Ring-war...

You may be right. At least I believe, that there were MOSTLY orcs in Sauron's army.

Originally Posted by CAB

If Men had been present in this army perhaps the Elves would have been more likely to take a few prisoners. Admittedly, when Angmar was defeated it’s army received the same treatment, and it definitely contained Men.

Very true. Elves had no qualms to kill Men, provided they considered them enemies. Neither did Gondoreans.

Rian, I made a special thread for your question.

[Rían]

oh, ok - just saw it ...

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I don't really have anything interesting or insightfull to add, just wanted to say I love coming in here and reading your guy's post (CAB and Gordis). I learn something I didn't know everytime I come here. Like this:

Originally Posted by Gordis

The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle. Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton!), or the monstrous birds (!). In the first drafts for the scene with Eowyn, she destroyed the Witch-King SIMPLY by cutting off the bird's head! By the way, there the WK only lost his shape, much like at the Ford, and was present again at the Parley (instead of the Mouth) and then even talked with Frodo after the Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Doom. But then, Tolkien decided that the bird was one thing, the nazgul was another- always man-shaped, and changed the Eowyn scene exactly as it is now.

I never knew that. I knew he changed the idea of the WK being one of the 2 wizards but had no idea about this one. I wonder what the convo with the WK and Frodo would've been like? Even what he would look like? Would he thank Frodo and appear the way he did before he became a wraith?

[Gordis]

Thank you, Faramir, it is quite flattering. For my part, I really enjoy discussing things with CAB and with you.

Originally Posted by Faramir

I wonder what the convo with the WK and Frodo would've been like? Even what he would look like? Would he thank Frodo and appear the way he did before he became a wraith?

There was not much of a conversation... And certainly no thanks given...

Here are the quotes. It was Udukhaturz who first posted these two bits in another thread.
http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?...0&postcount=81
Now, thanks to Udu, I will not have to type it anew.

Here is Version I
“Perhaps better would be to make Gollum repent in a way. He is utterly wretched, and commits suicide. Gollum has it, he cried. No one else shall have it. I will destroy you all. He leaps into crack. Fire goes mad. Frodo is like to be destroyed.
Nazgûl shape at the door. Frodo is caught in the fire-chamber and cannot get out!
“Here we all end together", said the Ring Wraith.
Frodo is too weary and lifeless to say nay.
“You first", said a voice, and Sam (with Sting?) stabs the Black Rider from behind.
Frodo and Sam escape and flee down mountain-side. But they could not escape the running molten lava. They see Eagles driving the Nazgûl. Eagles rescue them.�
-The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version I, Sauron Defeated, p. 5

Here is Version II, which is more complicated than Version I

"Frodo puts on Ring! A great cry rings out. A great shadow swoops down from Baraddur, like a bird. The Wizard King is coming. Frodo feels him - the one who stabbed him under Weathertop. He is wearing Ring and has been seen. He struggles to take Ring off and cannot. The Nazgûl draws near as swift as storm. Frodo's one idea is to escape it, and without thinking of his errand he now flies into the Chamber of Fire. A great fissure goes across it from left to right. Fire boils in it. All goes dark to Frodo and he falls on his knees. At that moment Gollum arrives panting and grabs at the Ring. That rouses Frodo, and they fight on the brink of the chasm. Gollum breaks Frodo's finger and gets Ring. Frodo falls in swoon. But Sam who has now arrived rushes in suddenly and pushes Gollum over the brink. Gollum and Ring go into the Fire together. The Mountain boils and erupts. Barad-dur falls. A great dust and a dark shadow floats away on NE from the rising SW wind. Frodo suddenly thinks he can hear and smell Sea. A dreadful shuddering cry is borne away and until it dies far off all men and things stand still.
Frodo turns and sees door blocked by Wizard King. The mountain begins to erupt and crumble.
"Here we will perish together", said the Wizard King. But Frodo draws Sting. He no longer has any fear whatsoever. He is master of the Black Riders. He commands the Black Rider to follow the Ring his master and drives it into the fire.�
- The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version II, Sauron Defeated, p. 6-7

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

I don't really have anything interesting or insightfull to add, just wanted to say I love coming in here and reading your guy's post (CAB and Gordis).

I am a lot like Faramir. I don't have anything really helpful to say sometimes, but I like to go here and read what Gordis and CAB post. I feel guilty sometimes that I don't have anything to add. To say that I appreciate their insights is an understatement. Keep it coming!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Udukhaturz

I am a lot like Faramir. I don't have anything really helpful to say sometimes, but I like to go here and read what Gordis and CAB post. I feel guilty sometimes that I don't have anything to add. To say that I appreciate their insights is an understatement. Keep it coming!

Thanks, Udu.
I am sure you have somnething to say! Especially, about my ravings on nazgul bodies... I am absolutely uncertain about this matter myself.

For instance, what happened at the Ford? Were the nazgul bodies simply sorely wounded? Or did they move into the spirit wotld entirely, unable to return back into the physical world without Sauron's help (or more likely not Sauron's, but their Rings' help)? It seems they had to return to Mordor, as best they could, for healing.

[Udukhaturz]

Gordis,

Though I have spent much time in pondering and questioning, I am not clear upon the matter myself. Since Tolkien said nothing definite, anything I say is purely conjecture. About all I will state in the way of an absolute is: the Nazgul are unlike any other supernatural phenomena that is commonly found in myth, legend, superstition, and/or fiction. They are original, the works of Tolkien’s hand and his alone. Essentially I consider them as invisible men more or less preserved, capable of reasonable thought, surrounded by a magic “force field.�

That said, I will go on. What do we know about wraiths, ghosts, etc. in literature and/or legend?

1. The wraiths are not ghosts, which are disembodied spirits or souls of humans usually. Often they seem to be associated with a place, person, event and are more or less trapped to stay there (although there are accounts in lore of “ghosts following people home.� I will not comment upon that.) Usually, they are insubstantial vapors.
2. This separates Nazgul from demons, djinns, evil spirits, etc. which are in a whole other category that can have physical manifestation. Read Burton’s version of 1001 Arabian Nights to see their romantic prowesses if you doubt this.
3. They are not zombies, corpses reanimated by magic.

Going back to Number One, how do we know they are not ghosts, disembodied spirits? Tolkien tells us so.

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later, the dark power will devour him." - Gandalf, "The Shadow of the Past," Fellowship of the Ring, p.56

If they are not dead, they cannot be ghosts, only INVISIBLE MEN.

"Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion, p.289

It hardly seems likely that they are demons, djinns, etc., or Tolkien would have told us that. (See above)

Zombies, no. They are simply dead bodies that are made to move around by some form of magic.

What what does this leave us?

Invisible, magic men.

In Tolkien’s earlier versions, he had them as almost maia-like shapeshifters who could turn themselves into giant vultures.

I think our confusion lies in this. Tolkien did rewrites constantly. As Gordis said, “The problem is that Tolkien changed his conception of the nazgul bodies, right in the middle of writing LOTR, sometime during the first drafts of the Pelennor Battle. Originally, Nazgul were shape-shifters, that could look like a hobbit (one looking like a hobbit came to Hobbiton!), or the monstrous birds (!).�

At least we know or have a good idea of what they are not, but as to what they are will always be a matter of pure conjecture. I am sticking with the invisible, magic men.

[Gordis]

Udu I agree that the nazgul are not djinns, or ghosts, or zombies. In Tolkien's world, IMHO, demons are Maiar, ghosts are also present - dead men of Dunharrow. As for the zombies, the closer one can get are the Barrow wights, but they are decaying bodies inhabited by evil spirits, not exactly zombies, but close.
The nazgul and the Morgul-knife victims are wraiths, with clear physical side, some hroa always present. Most likely, it is the same body they had while alive, otherwise they should have passed through a re-incarnation, which is a difficult thing even for a maia. Once their body is slain, they won't be re-incarnated again. That is consistent with the end of the LOTR, but, unfortunately, not with the beginning. *sigh*.

Originally Posted by Udukhaturz

If they are not dead, they cannot be ghosts, only INVISIBLE MEN.

As I said, there are problems with the beginning of the LOTR (inevitable it seems). But also: why couldn't they be slain by arrows? Of course, you can postulate a magic shield, but that is just a guess.... And, why is there no body left when the WK dies?
I know, all these questions are hard to answer anyway... I wish Tolkien had developed his nazgul conception further.

By the way, aren't the nazgul very similar to FADED Elves that Tolkien calls "the lingerers"? They have physical invisible bodies and they are not dead.

Thinking of the Lingerers, perhaps they were the reason why Celebrimbor made the interaction with the Spirit World one of the properties (if not the main property) of the Nine Rings? Perhaps the Elves wanted to communicate with their faded kin, still living in ME? Perhaps they even wanted to help the Faded ones to become visible again?

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Gordis

As I said, there are problems with the beginning of the LOTR (inevitable it seems). But also: why couldn't they be slain by arrows? Of course, you can postulate a magic shield, but that is just a guess.... And, why is there no body left when the WK dies?
I know, all these questions are hard to answer anyway... I wish Tolkien had developed his nazgul conception further.

Gordis, just a stab in the dark - "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." - The Battle of Pelennor Fields, Return of the King, p.120

Obviouly the spell had been undone and the Witch-king's body was subject to harm. As to what happened to his body, I will posit this: as so happens in legends/literature, his body crumpled to dust, like Saruman's, when Eowyn gave him the death blow in the skull.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Thinking of the Lingerers, perhaps they were the reason why Celebrimbor made the interaction with the Spirit World one of the properties (if not the main property) of the Nine Rings? Perhaps the Elves wanted to communicate with their faded kin, still living in ME? Perhaps they even wanted to help the Faded ones to become visible again?

That is a possibility, but I was always under the impression that the Lingerers, if they wished, could become visible, if only to the mind. There is a quote on this but I don't have the time right now to look for it. Maybe someone else can look for it.