Gandalf is confusing!

[FrodoFriend]

Of all the characters in LotR, Gandalf is the one who confuses me the most. Maybe he's just too wise or something, but I don't get this!

1) In the TT: The Road to Isengard, Gandalf stops Legolas from going back into the wood in front of Helm's Deep by saying: "Do not go back into the wood, not yet! Now is not your time."
Time for what? Does he think the trees will kill Legolas (not likely, since he's an elf!) or that Legolas wouldn't come back or something?

2) In the Bridge of Khazad-dum Gandalf says he is the wielder of the flame of Anor. Is he talking about his sword or some mystical power of his? Anor means setting sun (Minas Anor = Tower of the Setting Sun, correct?), but that doesn't help me any.

Also, does anyone know anything about Gandalf before he fell in with Bilbo? I'm really interested in any pre-Bilbo & Frodo stories. Gandalf was friends with the Old Took, but what did they do together?

[ringbearer]

Gandalf is not just an old wizard! He was sent to Middle Earth from the West to challenge the power of Sauron. He is a Maiar...a kind of Angelic being. BUT, he was not allowed to use his full powers . Find a copy of "Unfinished Tales" to read more about Olorin , which was Gandalf's original name. Also read "The Tale of Years" in the appendices of LotR...(last part of RotK, it tells when Gandalf came over the Grey Havens, and why he was sent, and how he got his ring!)

Your question about Legolas is interesting. Without going back and reading that part over, I would agree with your second guess about maybe Legolas would want to stay in Fangorn.

[FrodoFriend]

I know Gandalf's not just an old wizard!!! I never said anything of the sort! And I have read the appendices. Thanks for the advice on Unfinished Tales though. I'll see if I can find a copy, but that's doubtful considering I live in Illiteracy-ville and haven't even been able to find a copy of the Silmarillion yet!!

[Lumina]

Your question about Legolas is interesting. Without going back and reading that part over, I would agree with your second guess about maybe Legolas would want to stay in Fangorn.

Ja, I agree. After all, Legolas is a wood-elf, and Fangorn is the forest of forests. I think Gandalf means that Legolas has "things to finish" first. After the War of the Ring he can (and does) return to Fangorn with Gimli.

[Ñólendil]

I think Gandalf's words to Legolas meant more or less 'We're going to Isengard, don't tarry among the trees.'

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
I know Gandalf's not just an old wizard!!! I never said anything of the sort! And I have read the appendices. Thanks for the advice on Unfinished Tales though. I'll see if I can find a copy, but that's doubtful considering I live in Illiteracy-ville and haven't even been able to find a copy of the Silmarillion yet!!

Did not mean to make you!

[Renille]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend

2) In the Bridge of Khazad-dum Gandalf says he is the wielder of the flame of Anor. Is he talking about his sword or some mystical power of his? Anor means setting sun (Minas Anor = Tower of the Setting Sun, correct?), but that doesn't help me any.

I have no idea about the Minas Anor thing, but I do know that Anor was a ring.... one of the 3 elven "rings of power";the ring of fire, to be exact. (I think so...I could be wrong...)

And about not being able to find a Silm. copy...do you have a Wal-Mart around? Because I just found the Unfinished Tales at mine on Tuesday. I was really surprised. I always find something cool in their book section. Make that in ANY book section!

[ringbearer]

but I do know that Anor was a ring.... one of the 3 elven "rings of power";the ring of fire, to be exact. (I think so...I could be wrong...)

Yep, you are wrong...Cirdan's/Gandalf's ring is named Narya.

[Gandalf The Grey]

Then what kind of ring did Gandalf have?
Was it a Dwarf ring?A Elven ring?A man ring?
Or did cirdan make another ring of power and told only gandalf and gave it to him?

[athelas]

Gandalf's ring, Narya was one of the three elven rings. Elrond's ring, Vilya and Galadriel's ring Nenya were the other two.

[Ñólendil]

I'm going to lay out my Gandalf/Anor sun theories here.

So Gandalf says he's a wielder of the Flame of Anor. 'Anor' means 'sun'. What then? Well, he's opposing the 'Dark Fire' and the 'Flame of Udun' and the Balrog.

The maiden who guides the Sun is named Arien. In The Silmarillion as published we learn of her that she was

from the beginning a spirit of fire, whom Melkor had not deceived nor drawn to his service.

This would make her sound like an unfallen Balrog. If so, than Gandalf's words take on a new signifigance, as he is speaking to a Balrog (obviously). Arien may have been a Maia of Varda (being obviously a mistress of light and fire), though she tended the golden flowers in the gardens of Vána. Gandalf was of the people of Varda and Manwë, so Gandalf's warning to the Balrog may have meant: 'I am a wielder of the unfallen flame of Varda'.

More likely, though, is my second theory. This has to do with the so-called 'scientific mythology' of Tolkien's. He was devising a mythology that was in accord with science, with a round earth from the beginning, rotating around the Sun and all that. You can learn about it in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed. Note that in this new version 'Ea' is what we would call 'the Universe', Arda is the Solar System. Earth's name is Ambar or Imbar, I forget which.
In one of these texts it is said that in Melkor's beginning

he loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright; and he said in his heart: 'On such brightness as I am the Children shall hardly endure to look; therefore to know of aught else or beyond or even to strain their small minds to conceive of it would not be for their good.' But the lesser brightness that stands before the greater becomes a darkness. And Melkor was jealous, therefore, of all other brightnesses, and wished to take all light unto himself. Therefore Ilúvatar, at the entering in of the Valar in to Eä, added a theme to the Great Song which was not in it at the first Singing, and he called one of the Ainur to him. Now this was that Spirit which afterwards became Varda (and taking female form became the spouse of Manwë). To Varda Ilúvatar said: 'I will give unto thee a parting gift. Thou shalt take into Eä a light that is holy, coming new from Me, unsullied by the thought and lust of Melkor, and with thee it shall enter in Eä, and be in Eä, but not of Eä.' Wherefore Varda is the most holy and revered of all the Valar, and those that name the light of Varda name the love of Eä that Eru has, and they are afraid, less only to name the One. Nonetheless this gift of Ilúvatar to the Valar has its own peril, as have all his free gifts: which is in the end no more than to say that they play a part in the Great Tale so that it may be complete; for without peril they would be without power, and the giving would be void.

When therefore at last Melkor discovered the abiding place of Manwë and his friends he went thither in great haste, as a blazing fire. And finding that already great labours had been achieved without his counsel, he was angered, and desired to undo what was done or to alter it according to his own mind.

But this Manwe would not suffer, and there was war therefore in Arda. But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Eä) and driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda. This is named the First Battle; and though Manwë had the victory, great hurt was done to the work of the Valar; and the worst of the deeds of the wrath of Melkor was seen in the Sun. Now the Sun was designed to be the heart of Arda, and the Valar purposed that it should give light to all that Realm, unceasingly and without wearying or diminution, and that from its light the world should receive health and life and growth. Therefore Varda set there the most ardent and beautiful of all those spirits that had entered with her into Eä, and she was named As(i), and Varda gave to her keeping a portion of the gift of Ilúvatar so that the Sun should endure and be blessed and give blessing. The Sun, the loremasters tell us, was in that beginning named As (which is as near as it can be interpreted Warmth, to which are joined Light and Solace), and that the spirit therefore was called Azië (or later Arië).

But Melkor, as hath been told, lusted after all light, desiring it jealously for his own. Moreover he soon perceived that in As there was a light that had been concealed from him, and which had a power of which he had not thought. Therefore, afire at once with desire and anger, he went to Asa and he spoke to Arië, saying: 'I have chosen thee, and though shalt be my spouse, even as Varda is to Manwë, and together we shall wield all splendour and mastery. Then the kingship of Arda shall be mine in deed as in right, and though shalt be the partner of my glory.'

But Arië rejected Melkor and rebuked him, saying 'Speak not of right, which thou hast long forgotten. Neither for thee nor by thee alone was Eä made; and thou shalt not be King of Arda. Beware therefore; for there is in the heart of Asa a light in which thou hast no part, and a fire which will not serve thee. Put not thy hand to it. For though thy potency may destroy it, it will burn thee and thy brightness will be made dark.'

Melkor did not heed her warning, but cried in his wrath: 'The gift which is withheld I take!' and he ravished Arië, desiring both to abase her and to take into himself her powers. Then the spirit of Arië went up like a flame of anguish and wrath, and departed for ever from Arda;* and the Sun was bereft of the Light of Varda, and was stained by the assault of Melkor. And being for a long while without rule it flamed with excessive heat or grew too cool, so that grievous hurt was done to Arda and the fashioning of the world was marred and delayed, until with long toil the Valar made a new order.** But even as Arië fortold, Melkor was burned and his brightness darkened, and he gave no more light, but light pained him exceedingly and he hated it. ...

* Indeed some say that was released from Eä.

** Also some of the Wise have said that the ordering of Arda, as to the placing and courses of its parts, was disarrayed by Melkor, so that the Earth was at time drawn too near to the Sun, and at others went too far off.

In the names of Ari, As, Asa, Azie and Arie, the 'A's are long and have a bar above them, a circumflex, or in one instance an accent mark, but I can't find the right keys to show this.

Anyway, I'll get to my point at long last. This brings new meaning to Gandalf's words. 'I am a wielder of the flame of Anor' may actually mean 'I am a wielder of the holy Light of Varda and the unsullied Sun' and so actually 'I am a wielder of the holy Light of the One', whereas the Balrog wielded the lesser 'Dark Flame' of Morgoth.

[FrodoFriend]

Wow. This is way over my head. It does explain a lot though. Thanks for the info. Now I'd better read over it again!

[bropous]

Oy, my head's swimming from that one too. Good research there, Inoldonil.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
I think Gandalf's words to Legolas meant more or less 'We're going to Isengard, don't tarry among the trees.'

That's the impression I got as well. Nice research there, Ñólendil.

[BeardofPants]

That is probably so, but the feeling I got was that the huorn were still riled up, and accidents... happen.

[Rána Eressëa]

You wanna watch out for that as well.

[entss89]

no clue!

[BeardofPants]

If you have no clue, then why the $%#@ are you posting?!

[Artanis]

You said it BoP. B***** annoying.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

Go easy on entss89! Be tolerant... *can't say nearly as much as she wishes to*

Anyway, I believe that Narya had a ruby in it... and, if I remember correctly, a gold band? Either that or unspecified.

I researched the elven rings of power a couple months ago. Wanted to buy cheap versions of each from ebay... heh

Also, I was skipping through LOTR last night, looking for something on Gandalf, when I found that, I believe it was in the Council of Elrond, it mentioned all the other rings of power had a gemstone or jewell... except for the one ring, which was just a golden band. I had forgotten that they specified this and it makes me think back to a sort of official version of "the one ring" I happened across a while ago with all sorts of onyx and emeralds... argh

Sry for getting off topic!

-~*Sminty*~-