Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Udukhaturz

Gordis, just a stab in the dark - "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." - The Battle of Pelennor Fields, Return of the King, p.120

Obviouly the spell had been undone and the Witch-king's body was subject to harm. As to what happened to his body, I will posit this: as so happens in legends/literature, his body crumpled to dust, like Saruman's, when Eowyn gave him the death blow in the skull.

Some spll was undone, sure. But I always read it more literally: the spell that knit his body to his will, i.e. he lost control over his body and fell to his knees. Anyone would do that with his knee ligaments damaged. And that gave Eowyn an opening she could never dream to have.
But I know: it is just conjecture. Your way to interpret it is as good as mine .

Originally Posted by Udukhaturz

That is a possibility, but I was always under the impression that the Lingerers, if they wished, could become visible, if only to the mind. There is a quote on this but I don't have the time right now to look for it. Maybe someone else can look for it.

Couldn't find the quote, though I believe I know it. Yes, they could communicate with the living- ?by Osanwe kenta?, but hardly they could become visible.

[CAB]

Thank you to Faramir, Udukhaturz, and Gordis for your kind words.

I agree that questions regarding the nature of the Nazguls’ existence are especially difficult, if not impossible, to answer. We have Tolkien’s changing view, the clearly different (without the differences being clearly defined) states between ringless and ringholding Nazgul, and also, as Udukhaturz very nicely pointed out, the fact that the Nazgul are unique beings with no real parallels in earlier myth. Maybe this is part of what makes them so interesting.

The resurrection of the body (at least as far as Elves were concerned) was in a sense incorporeal. But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. If you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will.

Gordis may be right. This could be similar to the later conception of the Nazgul. Personally, I hope not. I could be reading this passage wrong, but this sounds like “super powers” to me. It doesn’t seem to fit in Tolkien’s world as I see it. Do you know, Gordis, if Tolkien was merely considering this about resurrected Elves (like Rian said he was only considering the passage about mortals in Valinor)?

Concerning the Lingerers, do you remember in which book Tolkien discusses them? I would like to look at that.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Gordis may be right. This could be similar to the later conception of the Nazgul. Personally, I hope not. I could be reading this passage wrong, but this sounds like “super powers” to me. It doesn’t seem to fit in Tolkien’s world as I see it. Do you know, Gordis, if Tolkien was merely considering this about resurrected Elves (like Rian said he was only considering the passage about mortals in Valinor)?

I think it fits with the text of the LOTR. There it applied only to Glorfindel. And the guy DID have "super powers":

LOTR: And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

EDIT: By the way, I got an impression that the nazgul feared Glorfindel more than they feared Gandalf the Maia. They attacked the wizard at Weathertop - but they ran from Glofindel patrolling the Road near Last Bridge.


Here is the quote about the Lingerers - faded invisible Elves, who still dwell in ME, but mostly belong to the World of Shadow:

Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), The Later Quenta Sil., Laws and Customs among the Eldar

“the Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully"
“Moreover, the Lingerers are not houseless, though they may seem to be. They do not desire bodies, neither do they seek shelter, nor strive for mastery over body or mind. Indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. Then they may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty.”

“Thus it may be seen that those who in latter days hold that the Elves are dangerous to Men and that it is folly or wickedness to seek converse with them do not speak without reason. For how, it may be asked, shall a mortal distinguish the kinds [Lingerers and Houseless]?”

“Yet the answer is not in truth difficult. Evil is not one thing among Elves and another among Men. Those who give evil counsel, or speak against the Rulers (or if they dare, against the One), are evil, and should be shunned whether bodied or unbodied.”

The passage I marked seems very interesting - it seems to corroborate my idea that a nazgul may also appear visible, if he wished, by the same mind-trick as the Lingerers ("through his mind working outwardly, maybe").

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think it fits with the text of the LOTR. There it applied only to Glorfindel. And the guy DID have "super powers":

I am going to try to leave the whole “Super Glorfindel” (with cape and tights, no doubt, and maybe the badge of Turgon’s house emblazoned on his chest) thing alone after this. There is no point trying to argue with something that Tolkien himself wrote and I would look like a fool for trying. These powers just seem excessive to me. Gandalf said that Glorfindel couldn’t “open the road to the Fire” but with these powers he wouldn’t need to. He could just walk/float the Ring right to Orodruin. Probably no one but Sauron, if even he, could oppose him.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Here is the quote about the Lingerers - faded invisible Elves, who still dwell in ME, but mostly belong to the World of Shadow:

The passage I marked seems very interesting - it seems to corroborate my idea that a nazgul may also appear visible, if he wished, by the same mind-trick as the Lingerers ("through his mind working outwardly, maybe").

Thank you for the quote Gordis. That is interesting. I think you are right that this is a good example of how the Nazgul might have operated.


Also, while reading the recent posts on this thread, I came across some evidence that the Witch King wasn’t entirely successful in maintaining the illusion of himself as a living Man (assuming he intended this).

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." - The Battle of Pelennor Fields, Return of the King

Udukhaturz recently posted this quote regarding another question on this thread. I think it shows (along with other quotes about the swords from the barrow) that though the Witch King may have deluded his own followers, he certainly didn’t fool the Dunedain of Arnor. It’s too bad none of them are around. They probably could have explained the nature of the Nazgul to us quite well.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I am going to try to leave the whole “Super Glorfindel” (with cape and tights, no doubt, and maybe the badge of Turgon’s house emblazoned on his chest) thing alone after this. There is no point trying to argue with something that Tolkien himself wrote and I would look like a fool for trying. These powers just seem excessive to me. Gandalf said that Glorfindel couldn’t “open the road to the Fire” but with these powers he wouldn’t need to. He could just walk/float the Ring right to Orodruin. Probably no one but Sauron, if even he, could oppose him.

I agree with you here. Somehow I have grown to dislike Morgoth's Ring and all the latest changes to well-established concepts. The Elves became more and more powerful and holier and holier (Galadriel was especially washed from all her sins). The contrast with the merry and often silly elves from the Hobbit becomes drastic. Orcs were originally made from Elves, but then again Tolkien decided to change this. And so on and so on...

Originally Posted by CAB

Also, while reading the recent posts on this thread, I came across some evidence that the Witch King wasn’t entirely successful in maintaining the illusion of himself as a living Man (assuming he intended this).
...
Udukhaturz recently posted this quote regarding another question on this thread. I think it shows (along with other quotes about the swords from the barrow) that though the Witch King may have deluded his own followers, he certainly didn’t fool the Dunedain of Arnor. It’s too bad none of them are around. They probably could have explained the nature of the Nazgul to us quite well.

Yes, the swords from the Barrows.
First of all, these were swords from the war in TA 1409 - fairly early in Angmar's history. By that time, the Dunedain couldn't yet become enlightened by the Witch-King VERY long life span.

So perhaps the blades were enspelled against the King of Angmar personally - not against a nazgul. It could have been done without knowledge of his nature.

Or, alternatively, the Dunedain of Cardolan may have learned about the WK's true nature - for example from the Elves of Rivendell, besieged by Angmar just prior to this war. It is interesting what this siege was like... Most likely Elrond had his defences made with the help of his Ring - like the flooding Bruinen River and similar ones. Perhaps the WK came and tried to breach them using his Ring? That would have made him obvious to Elrond...

So probably Men of Cardolan knew who the Witch-King was. But maybe their knowledge died with them? Or simply the know-how of the blades making was lost? It doesn't seem that anyone had such a blade in the battle of Fornost.

[jammi567]

Everyone, thanks for putting your thoughts down because as i read lotr again, it makes the book all that more interesting. Anyways, i have a question: when Sauron got the 16 rings, did he give them out all at once, or over a period of time?

[Gordis]

Jammy, if you want to ask a new question, you should make a new thread.

[Butterbeer]

why?

[Gordis]

Because.

[jammi567]

still waiting...

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by jammi567

still waiting...

What do you think?
Give us your own inside on Sauron's rings distribution.

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Olmer

What do you think?
Give us your own inside on Sauron's rings distribution.

If I were Sauron, I would distribute the rings to those who could benefit me the most. (I would think this would be powerful people that he could ensnare under his dominion. This would enhance his control over Middle Earth.)

(Unfortunately I have not read most of this thread so I can not add more to this discussion.)

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

If I were Sauron, I would distribute the rings to those who could benefit me the most. (I would think this would be powerful people that he could ensnare under his dominion. This would enhance his control over Middle Earth.)

Funny, the same ideas,as yours was expressed by other people in another threadhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...t=13107&page=3
So, I think, it's answering jammi567 question. Case closed.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Funny, the same ideas,as yours was expressed by other people in another threadhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...t=13107&page=3
So, I think, it's answering jammi567 question. Case closed.

Still doesn't answer whether Sauron gave them out all at once, or if the gave to the most powerful king(s) first (eg. the witch king) to practice their dark sorcery first because he/they were more powerful to begin with.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

If I were Sauron, I would distribute the rings to those who could benefit me the most. (I would think this would be powerful people that he could ensnare under his dominion. This would enhance his control over Middle Earth.)

I believe you are right. The Rings were not gifts to Sauron's faithful servants (it is a very widespread mistake to see them this way). They were "poisonous" gifts to powerful enemies, psychological weapons, that were able to turn his worst enemies into his servants.

And Jammi, nobody knows whether the Rings were distributed all at once (highly unlikely), or over a period of time. Sauron obtained the Rings in SA 1697. Ringwraiths (all the 9? or some of them? or the first one?) appeared in SA 2251. That is all we know.

[Butterbeer]

remember that the nine were not made by Sauron,

nor were they inherently of themselves evil ....

it was only the creation and design and nature of the one that ensnared them ..

even then it took many many years for the ring bearers to become enslaved ...

and this with sauron at his potent heights ... truly, how much possesion or control did he have on the nine after his meeting with Elendil and sons the 'finger-slicing' franchise .... ????

when he became a wandering dis-embodied spirit?

Who here, thus doubts that the Nazgul effectively became "free " for this time?

[jammi567]

in my personal opinion, i believe Sauron had to be focusing on them to be able to control them. so when they were serching for the Ring aroung Anduin, he was throrughly serching there because that's where he know it last was. once he realized it wasn't there, and gollum said 'shire' and 'baggins', he let the nazgul have their free will back because a) he had other things to focus on, and b) they're his most loyal servents, and so should be able to find it quickly and efficiantly. of course, once they got their will back, they also recovered their former fears etc. i think this is the best senario with the conflicting evidence we've got, both from UT and letters, as well as lotr itself. what do you guys think.

[jammi567]

I'm going to post this post so it's at the top of the list, and that so people notice it again.

[jammi567]

common people, this is/was a very intersting thread that deserves to have the amount of popsting that happened on this thread here.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

common people, this is/was a very intersting thread that deserves to have the amount of popsting that happened on this thread here.

Thank you, Jammi, for trying to keep this thread active. I admit this thread is my favorite - here is the only theory where I have priority, it seems.


But I would like the discussion concentrate on the main topic:
When did Sauron take the Rings from the Nine and how was it done?
Have they surrendered their rings willingly (as Martinez supposes?) or unwillingly?
What about the relations between the WK in Carn Dum and the Necromancer in Mirkwood?