Rebels at the 3rd kinslaying

[Artanis]

The remnants of Fëanor's sons did not have full support from their own people during the attack on the Elven dwellings by Sirion:

For the sons of Fëanor that yet lived came down suddenly upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath, and destroyed them. In that battle some of their people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords (for such was the sorrow and confusion in the hearts of the Eldar in those days)...

So, they probably remembered Doriath too well and decided that enough was enough. But could their rebellion be morally justified? What about the loyalty that they owned their Lords? Was standing aside any better than joining the battle on the other side? What do you think?

Edit: I'll give you a proof of my poor English comprehension and ask a question ... does "slain upon the other part" mean that they were slain by the Fëanoreans or the people of Sirion ...

Edit2: And what do you make of "the sorrow and confusion in the hearts of the Eldar"?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think to them it would be as they were defending, not attacking.

Didn't the same sort of thing happen in Doriath to?

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Didn't the same sort of thing happen in Doriath to?

There was no rebellion at Doriath, but Maedhros repented of the cruel treatment of Dior's sons, Eluréd and ElurÃ*n.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Artanis

The remnants of Fëanor's sons did not have full support from their own people during the attack on the Elven dwellings by Sirion:So, they probably remembered Doriath too well and decided that enough was enough. But could their rebellion be morally justified? What about the loyalty that they owned their Lords? Was standing aside any better than joining the battle on the other side? What do you think?

Well, when it's wrong, loyalty only goes so far. It's like Huan turning against Celegorm.

Edit: I'll give you a proof of my poor English comprehension and ask a question ... does "slain upon the other part" mean that they were slain by the Fëanoreans or the people of Sirion ...

It means that they were slain by their own people, the Feanoreans, I would think.

Edit2: And what do you make of "the sorrow and confusion in the hearts of the Eldar"?

I think in the First Age there was very much sorrow and confusion for the Eldar. From the time of the Exile and the rebellion against the Valar, the Noldor were divided. When they returned to Middle-earth, it brought great uneasiness to the Elves of Middle-earth. News of the first Kinslaying for instance, causing a rift between the Noldor and Teleri in Middle-earth. The possession of lands, and who served what lords were all cause for sorrow, anger, confusion and a divided people among the Elves.

[Durin1]

They probably just had enough of the cruel deeds of the Brothers and couldn't justify any longer the need to attack innocent, vulnerable people, catching them pretty much at unawares.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Well, when it's wrong, loyalty only goes so far. It's like Huan turning against Celegorm.

Originally Posted by Durin1

They probably just had enough of the cruel deeds of the Brothers and couldn't justify any longer the need to attack innocent, vulnerable people, catching them pretty much at unawares.

I think they were facing a serious moral dilemma, to go against the will of their own lords, or to be loyal and take part in an attack on their kinsmen for what they felt was an unjust cause. They knew what Maedhros & bros had in mind when they marched towards Sirion's mouth, but disobedience is a serious matter, so they went along and did not take a stand or choose side until the battle was a reality. Those who chose to fight on the Fëanorean side might have been deeply troubled too, but still chose to be loyal to their leaders.

[Attalus]

I think that Durin1 posted what I think: that of all the cruel, ruthless things that the sons of Fëanor committed, this was the cruellest and most senseless. The proper enemy of the Eldar was Morgoth, not their innocent fellow-elves. This, plus the slaying of the rebels by the "loyal" Fëanorists, would be enough to cause sadness and confusion among the Eldar.

[Durin1]

The Feanorians attacked groups of people who had been survivors from the systematic destruction of all the major elvish strongholds by the power of Morgoth. It probably seemed to many of the Feanorians that there was no specific purpose to the attacks, since they were only going to end up as being mere fodder for Morgoth's army: to pick up the winnings from from elves who were busy fighting amongst themselves.

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I think that Durin1 posted what I think: that of all the cruel, ruthless things that the sons of Fëanor committed, this was the cruellest and most senseless. The proper enemy of the Eldar was Morgoth, not their innocent fellow-elves. This, plus the slaying of the rebels by the "loyal" Fëanorists, would be enough to cause sadness and confusion among the Eldar.

I think maybe the burning of the ships on the shores of Beleriand was a pretty cruel thing do to. but in the rest i agree with both of you.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Well, when it's wrong, loyalty only goes so far. It's like Huan turning against Celegorm.

You would bring that up...

Celebrimbor too, one could argue...

I have a question: why is the 3rd kinslaying considered worse than the others or the burning of the ships or what have you...? I might be missing something, but I just don't see it...

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

I have a question: why is the 3rd kinslaying considered worse than the others or the burning of the ships or what have you...? I might be missing something, but I just don't see it...

Who says the 3rd kinslaying was worse than the others? I would agree compared to Alqualonde, because no one planned for that battle to happen. Personally I think The Fëanoréans vs. Dior in Doriath was the worst, it was the first deliberate attack of one Elven host on other Elvish people.

The burning of the ships is another matter, though it was a serious betrayal, Fëanor did not intend to kill anyone by that act (he only ended up killing his own son, by one of the versions of the story). Of course many Elves of Fingolfin's people perished in the Grinding Ice, but Fëanor did not expect them to take that way, he expected them to return to the Valar.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Who says the 3rd kinslaying was worse than the others? I would agree compared to Alqualonde, because no one planned for that battle to happen. Personally I think The Fëanoréans vs. Dior in Doriath was the worst, it was the first deliberate attack of one Elven host on other Elvish people.

Um... it says it here: in of the Voyage of Earendil:

And so there came to pass the last and cruellest of the slayings of Elf by Elf; and that was the third of the great wrongs achieved by the accursed oath.

I interpret "last and cruellest" as worse, but I don't see why it was any more so than the other two...

Originally Posted by Artanis

The burning of the ships is another matter, though it was a serious betrayal, Fëanor did not intend to kill anyone by that act (he only ended up killing his own son, by one of the versions of the story). Of course many Elves of Fingolfin's people perished in the Grinding Ice, but Fëanor did not expect them to take that way, he expected them to return to the Valar.

Poor Umbarto... (see, I do know Quenya names ). You're right though, it is another matter. And Fëanor is simply an idiot...

[Pytt]

Even if Feanor is an idiot, he is one of Tolkiens greatest characters. and one of the most skilled. but yes, I agree with you, he is not in he best mental sense..

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Poor Umbarto... (see, I do know Quenya names ). You're right though, it is another matter. And Fëanor is simply an idiot...

Don't tell BoP! I agree but I agree with Pytt aswell. He was a very complex character and I think Morgoth had a big influence on him. The destruction of Feanor's good guy side could be considered one of his greatest accomplishments.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

The destruction of Feanor's good guy side could be considered one of his greatest accomplishments.

Maybe it's my bad English again, but that sounds a little funny!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'll rephrase.

Maybe destroying the good part of Feanor could be one of Morgoth's greates accomplishments.

That better?

[Artanis]

Sorry T_D, I'm sure it is my bad English comprehension.

And sorry everyone for being totally off topic.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Don't tell BoP! I agree but I agree with Pytt aswell. He was a very complex character and I think Morgoth had a big influence on him.

A very complex character.

But still an idiot.

Maybe destroying the good part of Feanor could be one of Morgoth's greates accomplishments.

More eloquent... but you've still got a typo in it, TD...

I know what you mean, though perhaps "worst deeds" would be a better way to put it, well... unless you're an orc.

[Findegil]

Back to the topic: As said before, the first kinslaying at Aqualonde was not planed, and thus it was not as cruel as the last.
The second kinslaying was the first planed war of elves against elves, but it was not unexpected by Dior. He did fight the Feanorians at the eastern border of Doriath, and that does mean he was smart enough to know they would attack him after the not very fruitful talk to Curufin.
The attack on the Havens was unlocked for. If we read the account carefully we can even get the impression that the claim of the Feanorians was not rejected entirely but was postponed until Earendil was back. It is sad that Tolkien never gave a detailed account of the debate of the brothers before the attack on the havens. It would be interesting to know who did initiate that cruellest kinslaying, since the most sinister of the brethren were already dead.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The second kinslaying was the first planed war of elves against elves, but it was not unexpected by Dior. He did fight the Feanorians at the eastern border of Doriath, and that does mean he was smart enough to know they would attack him after the not very fruitful talk to Curufin.

The people at the Havens were probably prepared too. Findegil, I know you are working with the Ruin of Doriath in the Downs, and now you are referring to another version than that which is given in the published Silmarillion, aren't you? Which version are you holding to, where Dior had a talk with Curufin? If Dior expected the Fëanoreans to attack in Doriath, the refugees from that battle would probably not be taken at unawares by the same Fëanoreans at the Havens.

Originally Posted by Findegil

The attack on the Havens was unlocked for. If we read the account carefully we can even get the impression that the claim of the Feanorians was not rejected entirely but was postponed until Earendil was back.

I do not get that impression, and I think the people of Elwing would not give in on anything to Maedhros and his brothers after what had happened in Doriath.

The published Silmarillion says the kinslaying at the Havens came after a period where Maedhros held back and restrained himself, remembering Doriath, but in the end was driven to attack by the oath. In contrast they did not hesitate at all before attacking Dior.

Originally Posted by Findegil

It is sad that Tolkien never gave a detailed account of the debate of the brothers before the attack on the havens. It would be interesting to know who did initiate that cruellest kinslaying, since the most sinister of the brethren were already dead.

I would be glad to see an account on such a debate too, detailed or not.