Suggestions

janus13 · 08-07-2002, 08:39 PM

hama--

From what I've seen of your musical so far I am WAY impressed. That's a huge project to take on, but you have a flair and artistry that makes me think you could do it. It's so cool that you're doing your own lyrics and music, because it seems like a lot of musicals these days are just old pop songs recycled and somehow fitted into the storyline. Best, best, best of luck getting it produced.

Now I'm not a professional or anything, but I'm really into musicals and I have a few minor suggestions which you can take seriously or not.

First, make a BIG FAT, PROMINENTLY PLACED LINK in this forum to the home page of the musical. Then those of us who access it right from the Entmoot board don't have to wander around in confusion going, "So hey, where is this musical they're talking about?"

Second, consider the pacing of the story you're telling. Most musicals and plays have a rising action throughout most of the plot, to the eleven o'clock number, and then a sharp falling action at the Finale. I wish I could draw it for you, the diagrams my playwriting teacher used were very helpful in planning scene sequence and rise of action. I know you have a lot of material in the trilogy to get through in a short amount of time, but be careful of having too much happen too early. I mean, Gandalf "dies" in the 2nd or 3rd scene, doesn't he? That's a pretty major climax, and it would be best to give the audience time to adjust to the world you've put them in before killing off a major character. Deaths and/or disappearances early in a musical usually are the catalysts for the rest of the action.

Third, Boromir needs to sing a song before he dies. Characters in musicals ALWAYS sing before they die, otherwise it's a sure sign that they're not really dead. Think about it. Take Les Mis, for instance. Fantine sings "Come to me", she's dead. Eponine sings "A little fall of rain," she's dead. Marius DOESN'T sing at the barricades, he recovers. Javert sings "Who is this man?", he's dead. And Valjean sings the finale, he's dead. Likewise in your musical, Gandalf doesn't sing so he's not really dead. Boromir, on the other hand, is really dead. He seemed to take an abnormally long time to die, anyway, certainly enough time to sing a final song.

Thanks for listening to my suggestions. This is an awesome idea you're putting into motion, keep up the great work!

Oh, and if other people want to continue this thread for their suggestions that would be cool. I wasn't quite sure where to put them, because it seemed like ya didn't have a general suggestions thread already.

hama1 · 08-10-2002, 12:55 AM

Janus,

I have to say I am way impressed by the thoughtfulness of your post. It certainly ranks as one of the best to date.

As for a big fat link to The One Ring site, I have to say that I think Ben has done me and the project an incredible service by placing a link so prominently on the main page of The Tolkien Trail. However, I will talk to him about including one here within the forum.

As to the pacing of the show, I think that is something we will look at more closely at the next read-through of the script. I think you can look at the written word forever but until you see and hear a show on stage you really don't know how it works. However, I will revisit the script and the scene synopsis to see what if any adjustments I can make.

I absolutely love your references to les miz and "If they sing they are really dead." BTW..."Who is this man" is actually called "Javert's Suicide" in the score of Les Miz. I will be hard pressed to change Boromir's death as "Sail On My Friend" sung by Aragorn is one of my favorite songs in the show especially because I feel it is one of my best adaptations of a Tolkien Lyric. Perhaps I can look at making it a duet between Boromir and Aragorn in the same vein as "A Little Fall of Rain" is between Eponine and Marius.

Thank you so much for your suggestions. As Janus asks, anyone else?

***azalea*** · 08-10-2002, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hama1
...a duet between Boromir and Aragorn in the same vein as "A Little Fall of Rain" is between Eponine and Marius.

Ooooh, I really like that idea!

Nibs · 08-27-2002, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by janus13
Third, Boromir needs to sing a song before he dies. Characters in musicals ALWAYS sing before they die, otherwise it's a sure sign that they're not really dead.

That makes me giggle.

Great suggestions. Wish I had some.

hama1 · 08-30-2002, 01:29 AM

me too... But I am sure it is simply a matter of time.

Eowyn of Rohan · 11-05-2002, 12:05 AM

BTW...
ROTF! I loved the reference of "they aren't really dead until they've sung a song"! That was classic!

Eowyn of Rohan · 11-05-2002, 12:31 AM

Hama,
I visited the site and read through some of the lyrics and I mean to go back and take a closer look at the scene, do a little scene study of it. Being a BFA degree holding actress who is in love with LOTR, this has piqued my curiosity!

I have a couple of things that bothered (and, admittedly, I have read very little as of yet so I hope you will forgive me).

In the opening scene with Gandalf and Frodo:
Gandalf seems to be narrating (which in itself is fine). Stating the exposition to Frodo. This is good - gets the audience up to speed while informing Frodo of the peril he is facing.

My problem is that the dialogue, while surprising good, is at times somewhat "wooden" and said still for the audiences benefit rather than Frodo's. Frodo asks a small question, and Gandalf goes off for several lines in a "Oh, I'm glad you asked! Here let me tell you about it" kind of way.

The other thing is a specific moment of dialogue. Frodo's reactions to the news that Gandalf is spilling is.... (how to say this).... inappropriate. It is in the dialogue shown below:

GANDALF
It is dangerous in many ways and more powerful than I ever dared to think. So powerful that in the end it would overcome anyone of mortal race who possessed it. It would possess him.

FRODO
How terrifying! How long have you known this and how much did Bilbo know?

This is the problem: Announcing something is terrifying rather than actually being terrified at what Gandalf is saying is unnatural. Frodo should be terrified, but say something else, not say "How terrifying!". (Good rule of thumb that I like is "If it's not something that feels like something a person would naturally say, how do you expect people listening to it to accept that the character is REALLY believing it, that it's REALLY happening to them?")
As it is now,... I don't believe Frodo is actually terrified. For example, if you had just been surprised by someone, you wouldn't clutch you chest and declare, "How startling!", you would jump back and cry, "Oh my goodness!" or something of the like. The audience will be able to see that you were startled and they would discover the moment WITH the character. Don't tell the audience how they should be reacting to the scene,... let the audience discover it just as the character is. Audiences are smart - they'll figure it out... or make a good guess.

But I've only read very little and this could be one instance and it never happens again. I need to research it more, and if I need to come back and eat my own words, then I will be happy to apologize.

Agburanar · 11-05-2002, 05:48 AM

Quote:

"Who is this man" is actually called "Javert's Suicide"

I was sure that on the original cast cd it was called Soliloquey, but I like the reasoning that a character has to sing before they die. You could throw everybody who hasn't read the book or seen the film by having Gandalf sing before he 'dies'. Maybe not. Good plans though!

hama1 · 11-05-2002, 11:23 PM

Eowyn,

Thank you so much for your post. It is precisely this type of reply that I was hoping for when I put the script up here at Tolkien Trail. In reading your post I agree with your resoning and will look again at that particular passage. However, I have to point out that Frodo's line "How terrifying. How long have you known this?...is lifted straight from the The Fellowship of the Ring, The Shadow of the Past. I think there are two differences. One is that in the book, Gandalf's description of the ring preceding Frodo's reply is longer and filled with greater menace perhaps making Frodo's response more believable. Two, as LotR was obviously created as a written work such phrases probably read better as they do not put the onus on an actor to make them sound believable. Such is the difficulty of adapting a novel to the stage.

I will as I said take a look at that passage and perhaps post any changes I make here for further comment. I am also glad that you seem to like what you have read so far.

Brad

Eowyn of Rohan · 11-05-2002, 11:40 PM

You are right on with what you said (and I had meant to say something to the same effect in my earlier post).
Written text won't work the same when delivered by an actor through a director with blocking and so forth.
(Dern it, I've been busy and unable to read more. Maybe if I can't sleep like last night I'll go in and read some more.)
Keep up the good work!
EoR

hama1 · 11-06-2002, 02:49 PM

Agburanur,

You are correct that on the cast CD it is called "The soliloquy." In the actual score of the musical it is simply referred to as Javert's Suicide or at least that is my recollection. It has been a dew years.

hama1 · 11-09-2002, 02:39 AM

Gandalf

It is dangerous in many ways and more powerful than I ever dared to think. So powerful that in the end it would overcome anyone of mortal race who possessed it. It would possess him.

Frodo

Possess him...a pause with dawning realization Possess him? You mean possess me! How long have you known this...and how much did Bilbo know?

Eowyn...does this seem more natural?

Eowyn of Rohan · 11-09-2002, 01:31 PM

Hama: I think it flows better, yes!
May I suggest another change in Frodo's line?? (Take it or leave it...)

Gandalf

...(dialogue truncated).... It would possess him.

Frodo

Possess him...a pause with dawning realization Possess him? You mean possess me! How long have you known this?? then with increasing realizationHow much does Bilbo know?

Not making it a run on sentence gives weight to each thought. Also, changing "did Bilbo know" to "does Bilbo know" shows that Frodo doesn't YET realize anything about whether or not Bilbo ALSO realizes the danger of the item which he carried. If you have Frodo say "did" that means that Frodo knows something that in fact he doesn't,... because he is finding out for the first time himself.

Make sense?

hama1 · 11-09-2002, 01:34 PM

Make sense?

Congratulations...You may have just started your first project as a dramaturge!

Thank you. Keep the suggestions coming.

Eowyn of Rohan · 11-09-2002, 05:52 PM

Hey! If you like it, and it will work for you... you are welcome to use it. Just give me main floor center tickets when it opens (or cast me as Eowyn)

I just don't want to offend you or step on your toes by making critiques. If they are welcome, then I may have more. ((but I still haven't gotten around to be able to go in and read more.... grrrrr.))

hama1 · 11-10-2002, 02:24 AM

Eowyn, there is no way I could be offended by constructive criticism of my work. In the time that The One Ring has been "on-line" I have been called all sorts of names...I think my favorite was "The lyrics sound like they were written by a chimpanzee on crack."

No I welcome the critique. Just FYI, I originally wrote the script as an entirely sung through musical. I realized after the first read-through that wouldn't work so I "adapted" that original script into the more conventional book form of a musical that the show is now. Hence, with the subsequent re-writes I am essentially (and at times, with unfortunate results) adapting my adaptation of Tolkien's work.

Keep those cards and letters coming.

08-07-2002, 08:39 PM	#1
janus13 Sapling Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 12	Suggestions hama-- From what I've seen of your musical so far I am WAY impressed. That's a huge project to take on, but you have a flair and artistry that makes me think you could do it. It's so cool that you're doing your own lyrics and music, because it seems like a lot of musicals these days are just old pop songs recycled and somehow fitted into the storyline. Best, best, best of luck getting it produced. Now I'm not a professional or anything, but I'm really into musicals and I have a few minor suggestions which you can take seriously or not. First, make a BIG FAT, PROMINENTLY PLACED LINK in this forum to the home page of the musical. Then those of us who access it right from the Entmoot board don't have to wander around in confusion going, "So hey, where is this musical they're talking about?" Second, consider the pacing of the story you're telling. Most musicals and plays have a rising action throughout most of the plot, to the eleven o'clock number, and then a sharp falling action at the Finale. I wish I could draw it for you, the diagrams my playwriting teacher used were very helpful in planning scene sequence and rise of action. I know you have a lot of material in the trilogy to get through in a short amount of time, but be careful of having too much happen too early. I mean, Gandalf "dies" in the 2nd or 3rd scene, doesn't he? That's a pretty major climax, and it would be best to give the audience time to adjust to the world you've put them in before killing off a major character. Deaths and/or disappearances early in a musical usually are the catalysts for the rest of the action. Third, Boromir needs to sing a song before he dies. Characters in musicals ALWAYS sing before they die, otherwise it's a sure sign that they're not really dead. Think about it. Take Les Mis, for instance. Fantine sings "Come to me", she's dead. Eponine sings "A little fall of rain," she's dead. Marius DOESN'T sing at the barricades, he recovers. Javert sings "Who is this man?", he's dead. And Valjean sings the finale, he's dead. Likewise in your musical, Gandalf doesn't sing so he's not really dead. Boromir, on the other hand, is really dead. He seemed to take an abnormally long time to die, anyway, certainly enough time to sing a final song. Thanks for listening to my suggestions. This is an awesome idea you're putting into motion, keep up the great work! Oh, and if other people want to continue this thread for their suggestions that would be cool. I wasn't quite sure where to put them, because it seemed like ya didn't have a general suggestions thread already. __________________ "O Boromir! Beyond the gate the seaward road runs south, But you came not with the wailing gulls from the grey sea's mouth."

11-05-2002, 12:31 AM	#7
Eowyn of Rohan Enting Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Posts: 73	Declaring their emotion - bad Hama, I visited the site and read through some of the lyrics and I mean to go back and take a closer look at the scene, do a little scene study of it. Being a BFA degree holding actress who is in love with LOTR, this has piqued my curiosity! I have a couple of things that bothered (and, admittedly, I have read very little as of yet so I hope you will forgive me). In the opening scene with Gandalf and Frodo: Gandalf seems to be narrating (which in itself is fine). Stating the exposition to Frodo. This is good - gets the audience up to speed while informing Frodo of the peril he is facing. My problem is that the dialogue, while surprising good, is at times somewhat "wooden" and said still for the audiences benefit rather than Frodo's. Frodo asks a small question, and Gandalf goes off for several lines in a "Oh, I'm glad you asked! Here let me tell you about it" kind of way. The other thing is a specific moment of dialogue. Frodo's reactions to the news that Gandalf is spilling is.... (how to say this).... inappropriate. It is in the dialogue shown below: GANDALF It is dangerous in many ways and more powerful than I ever dared to think. So powerful that in the end it would overcome anyone of mortal race who possessed it. It would possess him. FRODO How terrifying! How long have you known this and how much did Bilbo know? This is the problem: Announcing something is terrifying rather than actually being terrified at what Gandalf is saying is unnatural. Frodo should be terrified, but say something else, not say "How terrifying!". (Good rule of thumb that I like is "If it's not something that feels like something a person would naturally say, how do you expect people listening to it to accept that the character is REALLY believing it, that it's REALLY happening to them?") As it is now,... I don't believe Frodo is actually terrified. For example, if you had just been surprised by someone, you wouldn't clutch you chest and declare, "How startling!", you would jump back and cry, "Oh my goodness!" or something of the like. The audience will be able to see that you were startled and they would discover the moment WITH the character. Don't tell the audience how they should be reacting to the scene,... let the audience discover it just as the character is. Audiences are smart - they'll figure it out... or make a good guess. But I've only read very little and this could be one instance and it never happens again. I need to research it more, and if I need to come back and eat my own words, then I will be happy to apologize.

11-09-2002, 02:39 AM	#12
hama1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: NY and MA Posts: 133	Eowyn's suggestion Gandalf It is dangerous in many ways and more powerful than I ever dared to think. So powerful that in the end it would overcome anyone of mortal race who possessed it. It would possess him. Frodo Possess him...a pause with dawning realization Possess him? You mean possess me! How long have you known this...and how much did Bilbo know? Eowyn...does this seem more natural?

11-09-2002, 01:31 PM	#13
Eowyn of Rohan Enting Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Posts: 73	Re: Eowyn's suggestion Hama: I think it flows better, yes! May I suggest another change in Frodo's line?? (Take it or leave it...) Gandalf ...(dialogue truncated).... It would possess him. Frodo Possess him...a pause with dawning realization Possess him? You mean possess me! How long have you known this?? then with increasing realizationHow much does Bilbo know? Not making it a run on sentence gives weight to each thought. Also, changing "did Bilbo know" to "does Bilbo know" shows that Frodo doesn't YET realize anything about whether or not Bilbo ALSO realizes the danger of the item which he carried. If you have Frodo say "did" that means that Frodo knows something that in fact he doesn't,... because he is finding out for the first time himself. Make sense?

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08-10-2002, 12:55 AM	#2
hama1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: NY and MA Posts: 133	Janus, I have to say I am way impressed by the thoughtfulness of your post. It certainly ranks as one of the best to date. As for a big fat link to The One Ring site, I have to say that I think Ben has done me and the project an incredible service by placing a link so prominently on the main page of The Tolkien Trail. However, I will talk to him about including one here within the forum. As to the pacing of the show, I think that is something we will look at more closely at the next read-through of the script. I think you can look at the written word forever but until you see and hear a show on stage you really don't know how it works. However, I will revisit the script and the scene synopsis to see what if any adjustments I can make. I absolutely love your references to les miz and "If they sing they are really dead." BTW..."Who is this man" is actually called "Javert's Suicide" in the score of Les Miz. I will be hard pressed to change Boromir's death as "Sail On My Friend" sung by Aragorn is one of my favorite songs in the show especially because I feel it is one of my best adaptations of a Tolkien Lyric. Perhaps I can look at making it a duet between Boromir and Aragorn in the same vein as "A Little Fall of Rain" is between Eponine and Marius. Thank you so much for your suggestions. As Janus asks, anyone else?

08-30-2002, 01:29 AM	#5
hama1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: NY and MA Posts: 133	me too... But I am sure it is simply a matter of time.

11-05-2002, 12:05 AM	#6
Eowyn of Rohan Enting Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Posts: 73	BTW... ROTF! I loved the reference of "they aren't really dead until they've sung a song"! That was classic!

11-05-2002, 11:23 PM	#9
hama1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: NY and MA Posts: 133	Eowyn, Thank you so much for your post. It is precisely this type of reply that I was hoping for when I put the script up here at Tolkien Trail. In reading your post I agree with your resoning and will look again at that particular passage. However, I have to point out that Frodo's line "How terrifying. How long have you known this?...is lifted straight from the The Fellowship of the Ring, The Shadow of the Past. I think there are two differences. One is that in the book, Gandalf's description of the ring preceding Frodo's reply is longer and filled with greater menace perhaps making Frodo's response more believable. Two, as LotR was obviously created as a written work such phrases probably read better as they do not put the onus on an actor to make them sound believable. Such is the difficulty of adapting a novel to the stage. I will as I said take a look at that passage and perhaps post any changes I make here for further comment. I am also glad that you seem to like what you have read so far. Brad

11-05-2002, 11:40 PM	#10
Eowyn of Rohan Enting Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Posts: 73	You are right on with what you said (and I had meant to say something to the same effect in my earlier post). Written text won't work the same when delivered by an actor through a director with blocking and so forth. (Dern it, I've been busy and unable to read more. Maybe if I can't sleep like last night I'll go in and read some more.) Keep up the good work! EoR

11-06-2002, 02:49 PM	#11
hama1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: NY and MA Posts: 133	Agburanur, You are correct that on the cast CD it is called "The soliloquy." In the actual score of the musical it is simply referred to as Javert's Suicide or at least that is my recollection. It has been a dew years.

11-09-2002, 01:34 PM	#14
hama1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: NY and MA Posts: 133	Make sense? Congratulations...You may have just started your first project as a dramaturge! Thank you. Keep the suggestions coming.

11-09-2002, 05:52 PM	#15
Eowyn of Rohan Enting Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Posts: 73	Hey! If you like it, and it will work for you... you are welcome to use it. Just give me main floor center tickets when it opens (or cast me as Eowyn) I just don't want to offend you or step on your toes by making critiques. If they are welcome, then I may have more. ((but I still haven't gotten around to be able to go in and read more.... grrrrr.))

11-10-2002, 02:24 AM	#16
hama1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: NY and MA Posts: 133	Eowyn, there is no way I could be offended by constructive criticism of my work. In the time that The One Ring has been "on-line" I have been called all sorts of names...I think my favorite was "The lyrics sound like they were written by a chimpanzee on crack." No I welcome the critique. Just FYI, I originally wrote the script as an entirely sung through musical. I realized after the first read-through that wouldn't work so I "adapted" that original script into the more conventional book form of a musical that the show is now. Hence, with the subsequent re-writes I am essentially (and at times, with unfortunate results) adapting my adaptation of Tolkien's work. Keep those cards and letters coming.