Religious beliefs/Former Frodo and Sam thread

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Did I spell that right? I doubt it. Who cares?

Anyway, here we can keep talking about....ummm...whatever it was that we were talking about in that thread! If y'all don't want to, that's fine and no problem: I've been know to debate things to death.

Ok, here we go.


"It is hypocritical to behave as a Christian, and in the same breath condem another for not sharing your belief. "

You seem to think for some reason that Christianity is tollerant of other beleifs. It's not. Christianity claims to be the one and only way. All other ways are false and of the devil. Christ is the only way to heaven. That's what Christianity says. It is very Christian like to say that another beleif is wrong.

"No person on this planet has the right or power to judge another by saying they are going to hell for a belief or practice that differs from that persons norm. "

I am not judging you. I am telling you that God will judge you. Big differance. I totally agree that I don't have the right to judge you.

"Only God can say who will go to hell, and who won't. "

Exactly!

"This is judging others, and is in direct contradiction with the Bibles teaching. "

Christ said that he is the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh to the father but by him. Christ taught that all other ways are false. Christ was not tollerant. He cannot tollerat sin. That's what makes the differance between you and me. We're both sinners. Neither of us deserve live in the presence of God. We both have earned death by our sins. The thing that makes us differant is that the blood of Christ has washed me clean. You haven't let him. Am I in anyway better than you? No. Do I look down on you? No. It's just that i have trusted and you haven't.

"There is no one on this forum, or on this planet that can say another is going to hell, and then say you are a Cristian, or a God fearing person. "

Ok, take this for example. You are going to die. When, I don't know, but you will die. Does this mean that I will kill you? No. Does this mean that I have decided you will die? No. It simply means that I know that everyone will die.

Here's another statement. You will go to hell if you don't trust in Christ. Did I decide you would go to hell? No. Did I decide that you must trust Christ to escape? No. It's just that I know it to be so. When I say that you wll die, it doesn't mean I have made it so. And when i say you must trust Christ or go to hell, it doesn't mean I have made it so. That's just the way it is.

[Darth Tater]

"Hate the sin, not the sinner."

Christianity is a religion that is very accepting of everyone, including sinners. Especially sinners. Jesus "came not to call the riteous, but sinners to repentance."

However, Christian churches are made up of human beings. We are imperfect. When faced with the knowledge that something is wrong (at least according to your faith) it is very difficult not to condemn those who do the wrong. It is not our place to judge, of course, but we do, we all do.

[Finmandos12]

That's right. Christians don't say they are holy. They try to be, but our best attempts are not good enough. See that Mathron?

[Mathron]

All religions are no more than the people within them, and people are imperfect. I have never made claims on a religion based on the actions of individuals, but on personal conflictions with the dogma. I find almost all religions just fine at the root, but may have difficulties with the organizations arising from them.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Strange-Looking Lurker


You seem to think for some reason that Christianity is tollerant of other beleifs. It's not. Christianity claims to be the one and only way. All other ways are false and of the devil. Christ is the only way to heaven. That's what Christianity says. It is very Christian like to say that another beleif is wrong.

First, let me say that I think you have a misconception of Christians. I don't know if you have a documented source for this view that you present, or if it is just your opinion, but I don't think that Christianity claims to be the one and only way, but for themselves.

[i]I am not judging you. I am telling you that God will judge you. Big differance. I totally agree that I don't have the right to judge you. [/B]

Let me remind you of what you said in the other thread: I said: "If I said that the Bible was the best fantasy book next to Tolkien, would you say that I was going to hell?" You said: "Yes I would say you are going to hell."

[i]Christ said that he is the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh to the father but by him. Christ taught that all other ways are false. Christ was not tollerant. He cannot tollerat sin. That's what makes the differance between you and me. We're both sinners. Neither of us deserve live in the presence of God. We both have earned death by our sins. The thing that makes us differant is that the blood of Christ has washed me clean. You haven't let him. Am I in anyway better than you? No. Do I look down on you? No. It's just that i have trusted and you haven't. [/B]

Now this attitude is exactly what I am talking about. How do you know, and who are you to tell me that the blood of Christ has washed you clean and not me? Or, that you have trusted, and I have not? You don't know me, so you can not make these observation and be sure of them. That is judgeing, and that is a sin according to the Bible.

[i]Ok, take this for example. You are going to die. When, I don't know, but you will die. Does this mean that I will kill you? No. Does this mean that I have decided you will die? No. It simply means that I know that everyone will die. [/B]

This is a silly analogy, and an excuse for your rant.

[i]Here's another statement. You will go to hell if you don't trust in Christ. Did I decide you would go to hell? No. Did I decide that you must trust Christ to escape? No. It's just that I know it to be so. When I say that you wll die, it doesn't mean I have made it so. And when i say you must trust Christ or go to hell, it doesn't mean I have made it so. That's just the way it is.[/B]

Going to heaven and hell is mostly based on many different laws that have been laid down in the Bible, and our ability to keep them. When we break these laws it is called a sin. The degree of punishment is determined by the severity of the sin. If it is the way you describe, then you will go to hell for killing a fly. Does the Bible not say: "Thou shall not kill?" It is not specific The Ten Commandments are written in order 1-10 Does this mean that you will be more likely to not go to heaven if you break the first one then you would be if you broke the 10th one? The Bible is full of inconsistancies, and it is your right to translate the Bible in any way you wish. However, your translation does not mean that is the way it is for everyone, but only for you.

[Ñólendil]

I would just like to add (because it has seemingly been overlooked by the Lurker) that Jesus was not the first member of 'the Church' or the religion that bore his Greek surname. In fact, Jesus was Jewish. My other comments seems to have been covered by others.

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

"First, let me say that I think you have a misconception of Christians. I don't know if you have a documented source for this view that you present, or if it is just your opinion, but I don't think that Christianity claims to be the one and only way, but for themselves. "

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. " John 14:6

Jesus said that no man cometh to the father but by him! Yes, Christianity very much claims to be the only way. You seem to be the one with misconseptions here: read through the whole Bible if you want to, but you won't be able to find anything saying that any other way will get you into heaven.

"Let me remind you of what you said in the other thread: I said: "If I said that the Bible was the best fantasy book next to Tolkien, would you say that I was going to hell?" You said: "Yes I would say you are going to hell." "

Ok, your right, I didn't state that as clearly as I could have. How's this? "From reading your post, I have come to beleive that you have not placed you faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour. If this is the case, then you are on your way to hell, and will end up there unless you put your trust in Jesus." Better?

"Now this attitude is exactly what I am talking about. How do you know, and who are you to tell me that the blood of Christ has washed you clean and not me? Or, that you have trusted, and I have not? You don't know me, so you can not make these observation and be sure of them. That is judgeing, and that is a sin according to the Bible. "

You make your point well. Please forgive me for judging you. Have you placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your personal saviour?

"The degree of punishment is determined by the severity of the sin. "

And what verse do you have to back that up?

"If it is the way you describe, then you will go to hell for killing a fly. Does the Bible not say: "Thou shall not kill?" It is not specific"

Considering the fact that God told Noah that "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things" (Gen 9:3) I would say that it's not a sin to kill a fly.

"Ten Commandments are written in order 1-10 "

And what verse do you base that on?

"The Bible is full of inconsistancies, "

Such as?

"it is your right to translate the Bible in any way you wish. However, your translation does not mean that is the way it is for everyone, but only for you."

Biggo wrongo! First off, the Bible is not to be translated, it is meant to be read. Second, what I read means the same thing as what you read: When the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill" it means that I shouldn't kill, and that you shouldn't kill. You can SAY it means whatever you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it means you shouldn't kill.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Strange-Looking Lurker


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. " John 14:6

Jesus said that no man cometh to the father but by him! Yes, Christianity very much claims to be the only way. You seem to be the one with misconseptions here: read through the whole Bible if you want to, but you won't be able to find anything saying that any other way will get you into heaven.

So, I guess if you are Jewish, or any other faith that does not recognize Jesus as the Son of God, then you are not going to go to Heaven? If that is the case then alot of people are in trouble and heaven will be a pretty empty place.

[i]Ok, your right, I didn't state that as clearly as I could have. How's this? "From reading your post, I have come to beleive that you have not placed you faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour. If this is the case, then you are on your way to hell, and will end up there unless you put your trust in Jesus." Better? [/B]

No, not better. This is still stated as what you think and believe about my fate. It does not count.

[i]You make your point well. Please forgive me for judging you. Have you placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your personal saviour? ]

This, I will not justify with an answer. You are being sarcastic.

[i]And what verse do you have to back that up?

I am not going to go thumbing through the Bible to win this debate with you. You can do that if you wish. Granted, you may be more religious then I am, or you may know your Bible better, but I am working from memory on what I was raised with. Are you saying that to lie is as bad as to kill and should be punished equaly?

[i]Considering the fact that God told Noah that "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things" (Gen 9:3) I would say that it's not a sin to kill a fly.

Does that mean canibulism (sp) is acceptable?

[i]And what verse do you base that on?

Look in Exodus. I don't know what verse.

[i]Such as?

One of the most popular: "An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth." "Turn the other cheek." "Vengance is mine, so sayeth the Lord."

[i]Biggo wrongo! First off, the Bible is not to be translated, it is meant to be read. Second, what I read means the same thing as what you read: When the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill" it means that I shouldn't kill, and that you shouldn't kill. You can SAY it means whatever you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it means you shouldn't kill. [/B]

No two people will read any book and see it in the same way as another. If that were the case, then we would not be having this debate, and there would be no Tolkien forums for discussion of those books. If every one perceived things in the same way when they read them then life would be very dull.

[Darth Tater]

According to Holy Tradition (something that most forms of Christianity ignore far too much), people who do not know Christ are given a chance after death. They are met by John the Baptist, who teaches them about Christ. If they choose to follow him, they go to heaven, if not...

Now this may sound harsh, but remember, your soul after death stays forever in the state in which you died. If you died a good person, your soul is good, if you died bad, then, well, you get it. And this is, of course, a reflection of what your whole life up to the point of your death.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Darth Tater
According to Holy Tradition (something that most forms of Christianity ignore far too much), people who do not know Christ are given a chance after death. They are met by John the Baptist, who teaches them about Christ. If they choose to follow him, they go to heaven, if not...

Now this may sound harsh, but remember, your soul after death stays forever in the state in which you died. If you died a good person, your soul is good, if you died bad, then, well, you get it. And this is, of course, a reflection of what your whole life up to the point of your death.

Good point. Does not the Bible state that you will be judged according to your works on Earth?

[ringbearer]

Sister Golden Hair said...

The degree of punishment is determined by the severity of the sin. If it is the way you describe, then you will go to hell for killing a fly. Does the Bible not say: "Thou shall not kill?" It is not specific The Ten Commandments are written in order 1-10 Does this mean that you will be more likely to not go to heaven if you break the first one then you would be if you broke the 10th one?

Sin is sin...there are no degrees of severity.

This is "Old Testament" Law. Jesus came for the sinners(all of us). That is the basis of the "New Testament". Based on the "old" laws, none of us could get to Heaven!

In the "Old Testament" you sacrificed a lamb for your sins. God asked(tested) Abraham to sacrifice his only son...because Abraham was willing to do this, God had to send His Son to be the sacrificial Lamb. During the crucifixion, Jesus said "My Father! Why have you forsaken me?" At this point God (the Father) could not look on him because it was as if he had commited every sin possible...and God cannot bear to look upon sin! Jesus paid the price for all of our sins with the crucifixion...That is why He was sent...to give all of us sinners a chance!

[Mathron]

For those unclear - as Finmandos very clearly stated to me, the bible cares not whether you do good deeds or not, but only whether you pledge to Christ. Basically, since all are born sinners, and no one is perfect, it does not matter if everything you do is save lives and help others - if you don't accept Christ, you go to Hell, while the murderer who does become christian is forgiven and let into heaven.
In any case, I advocate this discussion be ended, as it will very easily turn into a heated discussion, that will benefit no one. Religion is a touchy subject, and I don't see either side being convinced by yet another religious debate.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I agree and will gladly bow out. I come to the board for the pleasure of discussing Tolkien. Unfortunately that thread became a bit more then that which is how it came to be here at GM. You are right of course, that religion is a touchy subject, along with abortion and politics. Three topics that can really get a war started. I would Just like to say that I respect Lurker 's beliefs and veiws, and I hope he does the same with me. No hard feelings and I look forward to debating many more Tolkien topics with him here at Entmoot and elsewhere

[Darth Tater]

I don't want us to become like the JC, where talking about anything that the whole world doesn't agree on is outlawed. We like heated debates up to a point. Just remember that ppl can have different views from your own, its OK!

[Finmandos12]

You brought it up again Mathron, and I don't think you're looking at it the right way. Let me use an analogy....

We are on one side of a mile wide canyon that circles the earth. Our first ancestors dug the canyon. God is on the other side. No matter how far you jump you can't get across. God built a bridge for us to cross. That's the only way to get across.

The mile wide canyon in this analogy is sin. The bridge is Jesus. God doesn't want the canyon to be there, but it is. He sent his son for us. Also, even though we didn't dig the canyon, its still there.

(Not sarcastic) Does that help clear things up at all?

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Alright, if y'all want to quit, that's fine by me.


"I would Just like to say that I respect Lurker 's beliefs and veiws, and I hope he does the same with me. No hard feelings and I look forward to debating many more Tolkien topics with him here at Entmoot and elsewhere"

Yes, I do respect your beliefs: I understand that allthough I can disagree with you as much as I wish, it's your life, not mine. Yes, I do look forward to future debates: your quite fun to argue with!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Thank You.

[Sakata]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
[B]I am not going to go thumbing through the Bible to win this debate with you. You can do that if you wish. Granted, you may be more religious then I am, or you may know your Bible better, but I am working from memory on what I was raised with. Are you saying that to lie is as bad as to kill and should be punished equaly?

Well, it is obvious to me that you dont go thumbing through your bible, or you would know that God judges all sins equally.


I fail to see why everyone is so quick to end this disscution. I dont want to judge anyone,but personaly, God is the best thing that ever happend to my life, and I am sure other christians in here would fell the same, why wouldnt we want to share our faith with others? I find so many people that dont believe in God, and dont really know why, maybe thumbing through you bible wouldnt hurt?

[Mathron]

I would guess that some people, do find the idea unjust that a mass murderer who accepts christ goes to heaven, while a person who helps others his entire life, but is an atheist, goes to hell. That God would place more value on worship than on actually doing good acts. The idea of salvation only through christ seems to indicate that good acts, love and kindness and everything like that, is pointless and useless. This seeming contradiction would probably be some peoples problem, and I am sure there are others. Not every religion is meant for every person.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Sakata

Well, it is obvious to me that you dont go thumbing through your bible, or you would know that God judges all sins equally.


I fail to see why everyone is so quick to end this disscution. I dont want to judge anyone,but personaly, God is the best thing that ever happend to my life, and I am sure other christians in here would fell the same, why wouldnt we want to share our faith with others? I find so many people that dont believe in God, and dont really know why, maybe thumbing through you bible wouldnt hurt?

As I told you in the LOTRs thread and I thought I explained in my reply to your private message, I have read the bible and have found it to be contradictory and unreliable. I am very happy that God is the best thing that has ever happened to your life, but that is for you. I have no reason to go searching through the bible to prove a point that I think I have already done. The fact that you and others do not care for my view or agree with it is fine. That changes nothing in my opinion anymore than my opinion will change yours. As I told Lurker, and I will tell you. I respect your belief and your view and would hope for the same in return. I said I would bow out of this debate and will, as long as I am no longer addressed in it.