The choice in Middle Earth

[Beren3000]

Recently I've been thinking, the distinction between wrong and right in Middle Earth seems to me very easy: you've got a physically manifest "dark lord" who terrorizes the peoples of ME and has been historically known to make false promises; so it's very easy to tell the "bad" from the "good".
Why was it then so easy for people to be tricked by Morgoth or Sauron? What would it mean to be "wise" in ME if the average man can distinguish wrong from right? Do you think that the Tolkien characters can be classified as "black" and "white" or are there any "grey" ones you can think of?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that any could be classified as black and white in any way, I'm sure even Sauron had a 'good' side. In this respect I think Fëanor could be classifed as a grey one. He was trying destroy Morgoth, but did terrible things in order to try and accomplish this.

[EarthBound]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I don't think that any could be classified as black and white in any way, I'm sure even Sauron had a 'good' side. In this respect I think Fëanor could be classifed as a grey one. He was trying destroy Morgoth, but did terrible things in order to try and accomplish this.

True, in fact, it was made note how Sauron was in fact a good servant....an admirabe quality though completely misguided in his case.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by EarthBound

True, in fact, it was made note how Sauron was in fact a good servant....an admirabe quality though completely misguided in his case.

He also loved ORDER and advanced technology, not like those rustic hobbits.

[Wayfarer]

Recently I've been thinking, the distinction between wrong and right in Middle Earth seems to me very easy: you've got a physically manifest "dark lord" who terrorizes the peoples of ME and has been historically known to make false promises; so it's very easy to tell the "bad" from the "good".
Why was it then so easy for people to be tricked by Morgoth or Sauron

The answer is really quite simple if you have the right perspective. The only thing that makes it confusing is the mindset you approach it with.

Your dilemma, Beren3000, seems to be rooted in the assumptions which you start with. You seem to believe that:

• Whether someone does Good or Evil is a matter of knowledge.
• Telling the difference between Good and Evil is easier in Middle Earth than in Our Earth.

If you accept those, it's easy to become confused. Because reality will never conform to your expectations - evil isn't a result of not knowing any better, it's the result of making a choice. The people of Middle Earth could be decieved by Morgoth because they desired something that he offered, and were willing to compromise to get it.

It's not a matter of 'grays' versus 'black and white'. Morgoth was Evil, with a capital E - but that's not the same as lacking any good characteristics, because as Tolkien himself said that would mean becoming a non-entity. Which makes the question of 'black, white, or gray' a non-issue. Everything that exists has at least one good quality (that being existance).

But nobody chose to follow Morgoth (or Sauron) because of his 'good side', or some good quality they saw in him. They chose to follow them because of their own 'bad side' and bad qualities which they possessed.

Maeglin sold out to Morgoth because of his own Lust, and Envy, and Hatred. Not because of some good quality of Morgoth's.
Gorlim betrayed his allies to Sauron because of his own Cowardice, and Fear, and Lonliness - not because he saw that Sauron wasn't really all that bad a guy.
The Noldor of Eregion didn't cooperate with Sauron just because he seemed like a nice guy - Galadriel didn't fall for it, after all. The Noldor cooperated because they allowed their own insecurity, selfishness, and pride to overshadow their good sense.

And that is why people in Middle Earth (and Our Earth) have a tendency to do Evil Things. Because even though they know better they're willing to compromise for the sake of their own desires.

[inked]

Well put, Wayfarer! Tolkien clearly manifests the brokeness of the Creation after the Fall in Arda, especially in Middle Earth. And, if you take the Elves as symbolic of Mind, Dwarves the Body, and Hobbits the Will, you find that all these components of human nature are affected and involved in the process begun by Morgoth's rebellion and the individual's choice for or against joining that process. All evil begins in the apprehension of the person, be it intellectual or physical desire, and it is brought to fruition (often a very discomfitting and not-as-imagined fruition) when the will calls it into some sort of existence, either intention or completed action.

It is interesting that Tolkien's critics in his time complained of the LACK of black and white in the LOTR. They thought it too muddled and without (!) clear moral direction. (They were of course critics and therefore insensible of any deep reading - if they indeed read LOTR before criticising it - as Tolkien himself observed in more than one place in LETTERS.)

In short, Beren3000, there is a way that seemeth good unto Ainur, Elf, Dwarf, and Man, but the end thereof is death! And the persons of Middle Earth are called to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly before Eru - just like the Primary Creation. Some do, some don't, and some can't be bothered!

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Why was it then so easy for people to be tricked by Morgoth or Sauron? What would it mean to be "wise" in ME if the average man can distinguish wrong from right? Do you think that the Tolkien characters can be classified as "black" and "white" or are there any "grey" ones you can think of?

Well, Annatar looked good and acted good (at least on the surface).He deceived almost everyone. Morgoth was good at the beginning and also repented for a time in Valinor. That is for the major bad guys.

And Valar? Good gracious, IF I were a Dunedan, I would NEVER bow to them AFTER what they did to Numenor! Neither to Eru.

Actually, the POV of Black numenoreans is much easier to accept than the POV of Gondoreans, who continued to bow West.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Whether someone does Good or Evil is a matter of knowledge.

And your dilemma comes from not noting the title of the thread. It's called the choice in ME. I agree that doing good or evil is a matter of choice, but for one to make a conscious choice, I think it implies some level of knowledge (at least basic)

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Telling the difference between Good and Evil is easier in Middle Earth than in Our Earth.

Again, I stand by my original opinion: when you're dealing with corporeal "dark lords", it's much easier than when dealing with the spiritual "non-existence" that is our Satan.

Originally Posted by inked

In short, Beren3000, there is a way that seemeth good unto Ainur, Elf, Dwarf, and Man, but the end thereof is death!

Again, we're back to the matter of whether it's about choice or knowledge: IMO, it's BOTH!! The fact that the Ainur, Elves, Dwarves and Men have been in direct contact with "the powers that be", and then chose to follow Morgoth instead of the Valar seems to me strange. It may be as Wayfarer said that they so choose in accordance with some tendencies within themselves, but that can't account for ALL of the moral choices in ME. Take Feanor for example Don't get me started on HIM

[inked]

Beren3000,

The fault lies within ourselves! Whether you claim total depravity, or "very far gone from original righteousness", or some variant of nurture, DELIBERATE disobedience to the known good is a human choice. I can't recall in THE SILMARILLION exactly where, but JRRT explicitly mentions the doom of men of which they themselves and the elves they meet are aware. And given Tolkien's reflection of the aspects of man in the races in ME, the behaviours you note infect every aspect of man's being: body, mind, spirit. I don't need to cite the OT and NT passages for you. I am sure they spring to mind.

Man chooses,over and again, the path of self against all others. Until by grace, the error of that way becomes plain to him, and he throws himself upon the Mercy as he knows it.

[Lefty Scaevola]

When the Valar was mostly shut up in Aman, Morgoth covinced the majority of humans in middle earth (to the east and south of the area of LoTR) that he was the supreme god and creator. Sauron continued the Morgoth worship as his lieutenent.

[Arien the Maia]

And Valar? Good gracious, IF I were a Dunedan, I would NEVER bow to them AFTER what they did to Numenor! Neither to Eru.

Actually is was Eru himself who destroyed Numenor. The Valar had no power to give or take Death away from Men(most of whom, didn't want it...thanks to Morgoth) so they laid down their governship of Arda to Eru and he cast down Numenor.

[Curubethion]

And it was really the Numenoreans who brought it upon themselves...

[Jon S.]

Maybe I should start another thread on this but to me, the more difficult question is, why should the orcs and their ilk always be evil? Why do they have no choice? Why were men constantly tempted by evil but orcs never tempted by good? Why was there not one single orc to turn from Morgoth or Sauron and do good? That has always felt one-dimensional to me about Middle Earth. No, I'm not saying for a moment that Terry Brooks is on a part with J.R.R. Tolkien but in Brooks' world, even the gnomes give rise to good now and then and I find that more real.

[Earniel]

Hey, I remember we had debates over that in the past. You might be interested to want to take a look at this thread: good orcs or this one: orcs

Searches can reveal more topics but these are the ones I remember.

[Elanor]

This is something that always bothers me about "epic fantasy", which has such very clear forces of good and evil. As if there's a difference between "evil" and "mean" or "good" and "nice". I have always seen the struggle between good and evil as something that takes place every day in the hearts of people all over the world. Epic fantasy is fun because the villains are so obvious, and it's satisfying to see them taken down. I am a Christian, so I do believe there is a sort of ultimate epic struggle between Satan and Jesus Christ, but that is also something that applies both in terms of the epic history of the world, and the epic struggle within each person, every day.

There are different types of evil in the world. You can have ultimate evil like Morgoth or Satan, who desires nothing but evil, and to cause misery to everyone and destroy freedom of choice. Then you have evil like Sauron, or Hitler, who want political power and to bring the world into physical captivity. Then you have traitors like Saruman, who definitely know better but have been blinded by the desire for power and prestige. Then there are people like Wormtongue, who love only themselves and betray their own noble impulses to follow some evil leader out of fear. Then you have addicts like Gollum, who enslave themselves to something beyond their control. But there are also people like the orcs, who don't know any better, and just give in to their inborn desires (almost everyone has them) to kill and tear down those around them. There is evil in everyone, and even "good" people like Denethor give in to it. There is greed in the dwarves (Thorin), lust for power in the men (Boromir), vanity in the elves (Thranduil), and selfishness in the hobbits (Sackville-Bagginses). And any combination of these in anyone, really. Evil is omnipresent, and anyone can choose to give in to it. I think the degree of evilness depends in part on the degree of knowledge. You can't be blamed if you don't know better, but "he who sins against the greater light receiveth the greater condemnation".

I would say that the most "grey" a character can get is someone who has done both great good and great evil, or had both of those in their heart. Some of them turn from good to evil and stay that way, which is a great loss, but how many can you count that did evil or allowed evil to happen, but then turned away from it and redeemed themselves (at least in part) by their subsequent heroism or goodness? Boromir, Thorin, Lobelia, Theoden, even Frodo. Still others have "glimpsed" evil, teetered on the brink of it, but stayed good. Faramir, Galadriel, Bilbo, Pippin. How much more grey are these than those who saw the temptation but refused to even consider it? Gandalf, Sam, Eomer. Then there are the numerous ones who were never really tempted to do anything evil. But even these people have little bits of evil -- laziness, selfishness, mean-spiritedness, jealousy, pridefulness, anger.

I feel the most evil on days when I get really ticked off at someone. It just pulls you down, you know? I hate that feeling. Best to get rid of it before it can fester and grow and turn into hate. Best of all to not get ticked off in the first place! So I try not to offend anyone.

[Earniel]

Impressive post, Elanor.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Elanor

Then there are the numerous ones who were never really tempted to do anything evil. But even these people have little bits of evil -- laziness, selfishness, mean-spiritedness, jealousy, pridefulness, anger.

I feel the most evil on days when I get really ticked off at someone. It just pulls you down, you know? I hate that feeling. Best to get rid of it before it can fester and grow and turn into hate. Best of all to not get ticked off in the first place! So I try not to offend anyone.

Well written indeed Elanor, and too true. It can be a mire.... easy to get bogged down in and sink faster and faster into ...

BTW: I am sure orcs could be tempted to their very own "dark" side i.e. of goodness, were they not elves once?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Why was it then so easy for people to be tricked by Morgoth or Sauron?

As illuminated in the Athrabeth, it was largely because Eru was more distant and hands off, while Melkor came among the Children of Eru and directly preach himself and showed his power. Again later, Sauron was present, and often presenting himself at the representative of Melkor/Morgoth, whom the majority of men had worpship since the first age.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

As illuminated in the Athrabeth, it was largely because Eru was more distant and hands off, while Melkor came among the Children of Eru and directly preach himself and showed his power. Again later, Sauron was present, and often presenting himself at the representative of Melkor/Morgoth, whom the majority of men had worpship since the first age.

But, in the First Age, the Valar came to overthrow Morgoth, showing that neither they nor Eru were as aloof as they seemed. And later, Sauron was proven twice to be a Dark Lord, once when he made the One and another time when he caused the Downfall of Numenor. So you see, the people of ME had a lot of fingers pointing them in the "right" direction.

[littleadanel]

*bump*

The title "Choice in ME" made me think...

What I love about Tolkien is that no character is downright evil from the very beginning, "born evil", so to say. Not even Melkor himself.
And another thing I noticed: what leads to choosing the wrong path is very often a desire for something you can't have. Look at Maeglin longing for Idril. (boy meets girl is the basis of every story ) And the Númenoreans not contented with long life but longing for immortality.

I admit these were two very distant examples... Ooh, I used to think so much about this. Time to re-read the Sil