Was the Ring Evil?

Haradrim · 08-20-2004, 07:02 AM

Was the ring evil. I mean it was used to do evil and its powers were evil but was it evil. I mean can you call an AIMBot evil just because he is programmed to say some evil things. I think not. I think that the ring is neutral and that it was programmed to do its masters bidding and therefore not evil.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-20-2004, 10:27 AM

Well, Sauron was evil and he placed a great deal of his power into the Ring with the sole purpose of ensnaring all the other Rings and the people under them. The Ring wasn't programed like a computer, it was Sauron's actual powers that were placed in it, so in essence it was Sauron.

***Valandil*** · 08-20-2004, 11:06 AM

Evil! Definitely evil... Sauron put a lot of his own 'self' into the thing. It had a malevolent nature.

brownjenkins · 08-20-2004, 11:10 AM

i think it was an extension of sauron... a part of his soul was encaptured in it... this would make it 'evil'... or at least like sauron

BeardofPants · 08-20-2004, 02:42 PM

And he likely drew upon the remnants of Morgoth's power in the creation of the ring as well, and we all know that Morgoth was totally useless at playing nicely in the sandpit!

Attalus · 08-20-2004, 03:08 PM

At any rate we have both Elrond's and Gandalf's word that it was "altogether evil." You can see in the events that surround its history. Isildur betrayed, Gollum devoured, even Bilbo playing malicious pranks. And what it did to Frodo wasn't very nice. Even Sam was tempted to become Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age.

Beren3000 · 08-20-2004, 03:37 PM

The Ring wasn't programmed, it was said somewhere that "the Ring of power had a will of its own."

Haradrim · 08-20-2004, 03:46 PM

Well I know when I am wrong. Thanks for the input everyone. However I still think that its not really the ring that is evil but that since it is an extension os sauron that it is the power of the ring and not the ring itself that is evil.

BeardofPants · 08-21-2004, 03:16 AM

The ring *is* Sauron, (and Morgoth); I don't see how it can be anything other than evil. Sauron put a whole heap of himself in the ring, which is why he was seriously fnuckzoid after the ring was destroyed - he'd put too many eggs in one basket.

Haradrim · 08-21-2004, 03:17 AM

but was the ring evil. Not the power of the ring but the littl egolden ring. Was it evil. I think not. I think the poor thing was a victim of circumstance. He was created to hold evil but that doesnt make him evil as he has no choice in the matter. Poor little ring.

BeardofPants · 08-21-2004, 03:40 AM

Poor little ring, my butt!

The thing had a mind of it's own, and inflicted it's will upon it's bearers... Poor, poor Smeagol. His pants weren't quite the same after he found the ring.

Haradrim · 08-21-2004, 03:46 AM

The ring had power which had amind of its own. The ring itself was not evil.
He was like a host body for power that overwhelmed his own little nice sit in a drawe personality.

Its okay little ringie. He didnt mean those nasty things.

Beren3000 · 08-21-2004, 05:54 AM

No it wasn't a "host body". Sauron actually MADE the Ring himself. He didn't just go to a local jewler and ask for a plaing golden ring

he made the Ring with his own (evil) powers. Which would certainly make the Ring (in itself as an object) purely evil.

Haradrim · 08-21-2004, 06:10 AM

He made the ring yes.
But in what order did he make the ring.
I thought it went like this.

Makes Ring
Imbues it with evil

Just because an object is made by an evil person doesnt mean that the ring is evil. Therefore I Stand behind my host-body theroy.

Poor little ringie-poo...

BeardofPants · 08-21-2004, 06:46 AM

Hmmm....

*Sauron forges Ring of Power in the cracks of Mt. Doom.
*Sauron wonders at the stupidity of the name.
*Sauron has a craving for chocolate
*Sauron eats a rich, dark, bitter 80% belgian chocolate (which, everyone knows, has been imbued with evil)

....
*Oh, and Sauron imbues ring with Eeeevil.

Recipe for one evil ring of power:

- Molten gold
- Cracks of Doom
- Lots of evil.

Hmmm...

Haradrim · 08-21-2004, 06:52 AM

yes but was the gold itself evil. If someone can show me somewhere that it says the ring itself, the gold it is made of, is evil then I will conceed. I personnaly believe that the ring is good and that the power it holds, not of its own free will, is evil. I mean lets say my father who helped make me put huge amounts of evil power in me. Does that make me evil? I personally think not. My creator was evil yes. (Hes actually a really nice guy) but I am not evil. He give me evil powers (didnt actually happen) but that doesnt make me evil. So in conclusion the little ringikins is personally not evil. However I understand where you are coming from and I respect your opinions.

Ahh the little ringiekins.

BeardofPants · 08-21-2004, 07:19 AM

*mumble, mumble* stubborn as an elf *mumble, mumble*

Let me get this straight: You are arguing that the gold itself is not evil, right? Not the ring? The gold? One could construct an argument along those lines, in that when Sauron had the gold mined for his ring of power, that the gold itself is untouched by evil. However, in the forging of the ring, you must remember, that not only did Sauron pour his malice and might into the forging of the ring, but the gold was drawn from a land that likely still bore the mark of Morgoth. "The whole of middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring". In other words, the gold is not untainted, and that, my friend, is where your argument tends to topple over.

(My god, I haven't been sucked into a Tolkien debate in ages. This, I thank you.

)

Haradrim · 08-21-2004, 07:24 AM

Good point about the bein gtaken from that land However if I am born in an evil land does that make me evil. If I am made by something evil does that make me evil and if someone gives me power and makes me a host for evil does that make me evil. I think no. but then again I would love to hear more arguments this is gettin gto be quite fun. Also the ring was made from the gold. Sauron would first have to create the ring. So he mines gold brings gold andd makes ring. THerefore ring not evil. Then ring is embodied with evil powers. Powers evil but ring not evil.

Lefty Scaevola · 08-21-2004, 07:24 AM

Gold was among the elements that Melkor paid the most attention to when working on Arda, and one of thoses containing most of his evil essence. There are feferences to this in HoME, and an essay somewhere, by Michael Martinez, IIRC.

BeardofPants · 08-21-2004, 07:25 AM

I'd recommend that you read "Morgoth's Ring" - HoME vol 10 for more details of Morgoth's "tainting" of middle-earth.

08-20-2004, 07:02 AM	#1
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	Was the Ring Evil? Was the ring evil. I mean it was used to do evil and its powers were evil but was it evil. I mean can you call an AIMBot evil just because he is programmed to say some evil things. I think not. I think that the ring is neutral and that it was programmed to do its masters bidding and therefore not evil. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-20-2004, 10:27 AM	#2
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Well, Sauron was evil and he placed a great deal of his power into the Ring with the sole purpose of ensnaring all the other Rings and the people under them. The Ring wasn't programed like a computer, it was Sauron's actual powers that were placed in it, so in essence it was Sauron. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

08-20-2004, 11:06 AM	#3
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Evil! Definitely evil... Sauron put a lot of his own 'self' into the thing. It had a malevolent nature. __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

08-20-2004, 11:10 AM	#4
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	i think it was an extension of sauron... a part of his soul was encaptured in it... this would make it 'evil'... or at least like sauron __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

08-20-2004, 02:42 PM	#5
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	And he likely drew upon the remnants of Morgoth's power in the creation of the ring as well, and we all know that Morgoth was totally useless at playing nicely in the sandpit! __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-20-2004, 03:08 PM	#6
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	At any rate we have both Elrond's and Gandalf's word that it was "altogether evil." You can see in the events that surround its history. Isildur betrayed, Gollum devoured, even Bilbo playing malicious pranks. And what it did to Frodo wasn't very nice. Even Sam was tempted to become Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

08-20-2004, 03:37 PM	#7
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	The Ring wasn't programmed, it was said somewhere that "the Ring of power had a will of its own."

08-20-2004, 03:46 PM	#8
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	Well I know when I am wrong. Thanks for the input everyone. However I still think that its not really the ring that is evil but that since it is an extension os sauron that it is the power of the ring and not the ring itself that is evil. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-21-2004, 03:16 AM	#9
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	The ring is Sauron, (and Morgoth); I don't see how it can be anything other than evil. Sauron put a whole heap of himself in the ring, which is why he was seriously fnuckzoid after the ring was destroyed - he'd put too many eggs in one basket. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-21-2004, 03:17 AM	#10
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	but was the ring evil. Not the power of the ring but the littl egolden ring. Was it evil. I think not. I think the poor thing was a victim of circumstance. He was created to hold evil but that doesnt make him evil as he has no choice in the matter. Poor little ring. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-21-2004, 03:40 AM	#11
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Poor little ring, my butt! The thing had a mind of it's own, and inflicted it's will upon it's bearers... Poor, poor Smeagol. His pants weren't quite the same after he found the ring. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-21-2004, 03:46 AM	#12
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	The ring had power which had amind of its own. The ring itself was not evil. He was like a host body for power that overwhelmed his own little nice sit in a drawe personality. Its okay little ringie. He didnt mean those nasty things. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-21-2004, 05:54 AM	#13
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	No it wasn't a "host body". Sauron actually MADE the Ring himself. He didn't just go to a local jewler and ask for a plaing golden ring he made the Ring with his own (evil) powers. Which would certainly make the Ring (in itself as an object) purely evil.

08-21-2004, 06:10 AM	#14
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	He made the ring yes. But in what order did he make the ring. I thought it went like this. Makes Ring Imbues it with evil Just because an object is made by an evil person doesnt mean that the ring is evil. Therefore I Stand behind my host-body theroy. Poor little ringie-poo... __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-21-2004, 06:46 AM	#15
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Hmmm.... Sauron forges Ring of Power in the cracks of Mt. Doom. Sauron wonders at the stupidity of the name. Sauron has a craving for chocolate Sauron eats a rich, dark, bitter 80% belgian chocolate (which, everyone knows, has been imbued with evil) .... *Oh, and Sauron imbues ring with Eeeevil. Recipe for one evil ring of power: - Molten gold - Cracks of Doom - Lots of evil. Hmmm... __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-21-2004, 06:52 AM	#16
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	yes but was the gold itself evil. If someone can show me somewhere that it says the ring itself, the gold it is made of, is evil then I will conceed. I personnaly believe that the ring is good and that the power it holds, not of its own free will, is evil. I mean lets say my father who helped make me put huge amounts of evil power in me. Does that make me evil? I personally think not. My creator was evil yes. (Hes actually a really nice guy) but I am not evil. He give me evil powers (didnt actually happen) but that doesnt make me evil. So in conclusion the little ringikins is personally not evil. However I understand where you are coming from and I respect your opinions. Ahh the little ringiekins. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-21-2004, 07:19 AM	#17
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	mumble, mumble stubborn as an elf mumble, mumble Let me get this straight: You are arguing that the gold itself is not evil, right? Not the ring? The gold? One could construct an argument along those lines, in that when Sauron had the gold mined for his ring of power, that the gold itself is untouched by evil. However, in the forging of the ring, you must remember, that not only did Sauron pour his malice and might into the forging of the ring, but the gold was drawn from a land that likely still bore the mark of Morgoth. "The whole of middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring". In other words, the gold is not untainted, and that, my friend, is where your argument tends to topple over. (My god, I haven't been sucked into a Tolkien debate in ages. This, I thank you. ) __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 08-21-2004 at 07:23 AM.

08-21-2004, 07:24 AM	#18
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	Good point about the bein gtaken from that land However if I am born in an evil land does that make me evil. If I am made by something evil does that make me evil and if someone gives me power and makes me a host for evil does that make me evil. I think no. but then again I would love to hear more arguments this is gettin gto be quite fun. Also the ring was made from the gold. Sauron would first have to create the ring. So he mines gold brings gold andd makes ring. THerefore ring not evil. Then ring is embodied with evil powers. Powers evil but ring not evil. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-21-2004, 07:24 AM	#19
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Gold was among the elements that Melkor paid the most attention to when working on Arda, and one of thoses containing most of his evil essence. There are feferences to this in HoME, and an essay somewhere, by Michael Martinez, IIRC. Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 08-21-2004 at 07:26 AM.

08-21-2004, 07:25 AM	#20
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I'd recommend that you read "Morgoth's Ring" - HoME vol 10 for more details of Morgoth's "tainting" of middle-earth. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

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