Random (non-canonical) Thought on Éowyn and the Witch-king

[Alcuin]

Rereading the confrontation between Éowyn and the Witch-king last night, I had a completely un-canonical, uncharacteristically romantic notion.

In another forum, Alvin Eriol theorized that perhaps

the Faithful and the King’s Party were ethnically identifiable, because they seemed to have corresponding geographic and linguistic distributions. …the Faithful appeared to be predominantly of Beoric derivation whose ancestors had adopted Sindarin and settled in the western and northern provinces. It would follow that the King’s Men would be expected to be predominantly Marachian; Adunaic was derived from the Marachians’ old tongue. The Dunedain of western Middle-Earth physically resembled Beorians more so than Marachians.

This thought has stuck with me: a lot of the Númenóreans probably looked like the Rohirrim, who were also descended from the Third House of the Edain or their closest kin. Among other citations I could offer, there is this from Two Towers, “Window on the West”, when Faramir tells Frodo and Sam that the Dúnedain of Gondor

…love [the Rohirrim]: tall men and fair women, valiant both alike, golden-haired, bright-eyed, and strong; they remind us of the youth of Men, as they were in the Elder Days. Indeed it is said by our lore-masters that they have from of old this affinity with us that they are come from those same Three Houses of Men as were the Númenóreans in their beginning. Not from Hador the Golden-haired, the Elf-friend, maybe, yet from such of his sons and people as went not over Sea into the West, refusing the call.

So here is the Lord of the Nazgûl, an old Númenórean prince long since fallen into depravity, evil, and unimaginable slavery to Sauron the Cruel. He threatens this knight of Rohan, who doffs his helmet to reveal this beautiful young woman with glowing golden hair. And the utterly non-canonical thought hit me:

Might Éowyn look like the Dúnadan girl the Witch-king left behind? Before his fall, was he not a man? Might have he have fallen in love? Here this young woman before him “golden-haired, bright-eyed, and strong” like unto “the youth of” the Women of Númenor “as they were in the Elder Days.” Might the Lord of the Nazgûl pause not only because Éowyn was “no man” but a woman, stripping away the riddle of the Prophecy of the North – but also because she looked like his long-lost love come again to walk upon the green grass of Arda? Might his “cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom” be not only a war-cry, but a cry against the life and love and hope he spurned in his lust for wealth and power, abandoned in a past now forever lost, a cry against his own damnation, as gazing again upon his unseen face with tears in her eyes he sees once more among the living the girl he left behind?

It’s just a notion, a passing fancy. And it has NO basis in the text: none whatsoever. It’s just a thought. But I thought I’d share it.

[Coffeehouse]

Hehe.. a romantic notion Alcuin.

I would like to agree, since it certainly would make it a very deep scene indeed, but my view is, maybe in a stronger degree than most here on Entmoot, that the Nazgûl are fallen to an extent that we cannot really fathom. They are lost in a darkness that knows no light whatsoever, and thus they cannot see beauty. It does not exist to them.

I have this view of them as creatures that have simply forgotten the emotion of love and whatever passions they had as Númenóreans.. I don't think love or a memory of love has any chance of presence in their minds in any situation. Their dark nature would simply snuff it out in an instant, and so the cry of the Witch-King to me, is just the blackest form of cry, without any recognizable human passion.

It seems a cold and shrill cry, with no past emotion involved. I don't think he could see her beauty. To him it's as unrecognizable as anything else. His cry is a dark cry, of anger, torment and desolation.

But it's a likeable thought you offer nonetheless

[Nautipus]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

But it's a likeable thought you offer nonetheless

Yes, indeed it is. I would not be all that surprised if the professor did indeed want that to be the basis of that scene. Unlikely, but not impossible. Thanks for sharing.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

His cry is a dark cry, of anger, torment and desolation.

But it's a likeable thought you offer nonetheless

And if there was something in this likeable thought, it would just make the torment and desolation all the more acute, and make the cry even more a cry of anger against Sauron his tormentor than ever before.

[Alcuin]

It seemed to me that for one so steeped in evil that anything that recalled to mind the days before his fall and the joys of normal life he would rush to remove, destroy, annihilate. To see a woman the spirit and image of she whom he loved would drive him near mad with rage unless he sought redemption. To kill Éowyn in that case would be to murder his own love and utterly and violently reject his last chance at redemption just before destruction.

And yes, that cry would be a cry of hate of Éowyn, of the unnamed woman of his honest youth, of his own honest and honorable past, of his fall, of all the evil and pain he perpetrated, and of his master whom he hated; and above all that, a war-cry practiced and raised for millennia on many fields of battle, intensified beyond ever before in dark fury against all creation.

Again, no canonicity here. Just imagination.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

She wouldn't really have to closely resemble a real woman in his past to stir up such thoughts. For one thing, he couldn't really see her all that clearly in the bright sunlight. For another, she could have been barely a step above a hag and still come across as hotter than any of the orc-chicks WiKi had to deal with on a daily basis back in Morgul. I imagine what he saw in Eowyn would give him pause whether there was any recognition there or not.

[Gordis]

Wow, how romantic, Alcuin! You should write a fanfic… I would love to read it.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

This thought has stuck with me: a lot of the Númenóreans probably looked like the Rohirrim, who were also descended from the Third House of the Edain or their closest kin.

That is certainly true, the blond Numenoreans initially predominated, as the House of Hador was the biggest of the three. Tar-Aldarion for instance had golden hair, his mother Queen Almarian also, and Veantur who first traveled to Middle Earth. The WK himself with 50% probability may have been blond.

By the end of the Third Age golden haired Numenoreans must have become quite rare. Most of the golden haired populace died in the Downfall, and those who remained in Umbar became heavily mixed with Haradrim, likely losing their blond hair in the process.

Eowyn might have indeed looked like a blond Numenorean girl, especially considering she had a lot of Numenorean blood from her grandmother, Morwen of Lossarnach.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Might Éowyn look like the Dúnadan girl the Witch-king left behind? Before his fall, was he not a man? Might have he have fallen in love? Here this young woman before him “golden-haired, bright-eyed, and strong” like unto “the youth of” the Women of Númenor “as they were in the Elder Days.” Might the Lord of the Nazgûl pause not only because Éowyn was “no man” but a woman, stripping away the riddle of the Prophecy of the North – but also because she looked like his long-lost love come again to walk upon the green grass of Arda? Might his “cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom” be not only a war-cry, but a cry against the life and love and hope he spurned in his lust for wealth and power, abandoned in a past now forever lost, a cry against his own damnation, as gazing again upon his unseen face with tears in her eyes he sees once more among the living the girl he left behind?

Sure, Eowyn easily may have reminded the WK of his wife or daughter. But … why do you think he had to "leave behind" any girls? I have little doubt that he had loved in his time and been married and had children. The WK lived so long before he turned into a wraith that most likely he saw not only his wife, but also his daughters grow old and die. But why necessarily would he have some unhappy love-story? Well it is possible, of course, but unlikely, IMO, given his high position and proud, arrogant personality.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I would like to agree, since it certainly would make it a very deep scene indeed, but my view is, maybe in a stronger degree than most here on Entmoot, that the Nazgûl are fallen to an extent that we cannot really fathom. They are lost in a darkness that knows no light whatsoever, and thus they cannot see beauty. It does not exist to them.

I think they can register beauty, but it hardly stirs any emotions in them, not anymore. They remember their past lives, but the feelings are gone. Frodo describes it rather well:

‘Do you remember that bit of rabbit, Mr. Frodo?’ [Sam] said. ‘And our place under the warm bank in Captain Faramir’s country, the day I saw an oliphaunt?’
‘No, I am afraid not, Sam,’ said Frodo. ‘At least, I know that such things happened, but I cannot see them. No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark. Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.’

.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

so the cry of the Witch-King to me, is just the blackest form of cry, without any recognizable human passion.

Oh, but one human passion is quite recognizable in WK's cry: HATE.

You seem to forget how the events played out. Eowyn had revealed that she was a woman - the WK "made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt." The revelation itself didn't provoke any cries from him, emotional or not. He just sat there looking at her and thinking.

Then the Fell Beast, bored by its rider's inactivity, decided to eat the tasty girl - and got its head chopped off. THIS provoked the WK's attack, not the previous talk.

Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.

Well, I quite understand his feelings. What would YOU do if someone kills your horse / cat / dog / Fell Beast in front of you? I sure would be murderous. The WK got so mad, he even forgot his promise to show her the finer points of torture (the Houses of Lamentation etc), he just gripped his mace and whacked her.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

And yes, that cry would be a cry of hate of Éowyn, of the unnamed woman of his honest youth, of his own honest and honorable past, of his fall, of all the evil and pain he perpetrated, and of his master whom he hated; and above all that, a war-cry practiced and raised for millennia on many fields of battle, intensified beyond ever before in dark fury against all creation.

Nothing so complicated, IMO. This cry was simply a cry of hate of the viper who had killed his pet.

You see, Alcuin, I like your initial theory. The WK learned that he faced a woman, thus "no man": it was dangerous. If this woman, in addition, resembled someone whom he used to love in the past, it could be symbolic (Death taking a guise of his former beloved) and thus even more dangerous. All this was more than enough to give him pause. But for the voracious Fell Beast, he might have left leaving Eowyn unmolested.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

She wouldn't really have to closely resemble a real woman in his past to stir up such thoughts. For one thing, he couldn't really see her all that clearly in the bright sunlight. For another, she could have been barely a step above a hag and still come across as hotter than any of the orc-chicks WiKi had to deal with on a daily basis back in Morgul. I imagine what he saw in Eowyn would give him pause whether there was any recognition there or not.

What is this talk about orc-chicks? Minas Morgul was a big city with lots of Men stationed there (remember this "great cavalry of horsemen" that rode out?). I bet there were enough human chicks in Minas Morgul, and if not, the WK was in a position to get as many hot chicks as he liked, Numenoreans included, if only he had interest in such things - which I doubt.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm sure the women there in Minas Morgul were beauties.

[Rían]

Interesting thought, Alcuin! I think there's definitely something in evil that regrets the evil choices, and to be reminded of this would bring great sorrow, and then denial and anger.

As far as the beastie, I don't think the WK attacked Eowyn because his pet was killed. I think her killing the beastie just brought him out of his reverie. I think he always intended to try to kill her.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I'm sure the women there in Minas Morgul were beauties.

Why would Black Numenorean women be less hot than Faithful Numenorean woman? And what have you against the beauties of the East?