Middle Earth vs Galactic Empire

[General Veers]

There seems to be a few fans of Star Wars in here, so I think I may get a decent answer -

Who wins? Middle Earth, or the Galactic Empire?

Serious inquiries only, please.

[emplynx]

wrong forum. i wish i was a mod.

[gdl96]

I am

[Starr Polish]

Middle Earth, in my book.

[General Veers]

I figured I'd get curt, simplistic answers.

Here's the issues:

*) The Galactic Empire could easily reach Valinor. Drop ships could bring down as many troops as were needed to quell the inhabitants. Were a repeat of the Numenorian debacle to recur, the invasion forces would simply restock on stormtroopers and try again.

*) There were Dark Jedi in the employ of the Emperor, who were far less reluctant to use their powers than were the Maia of LotR.

*) The Empire would have complete air supremacy during the entire campaign. Their only possible aerial opposition would be nine zombies on perydactyls.

*) If all else fails, there is always the Death Star.

Frankly, I don't see how the residents of Middle Earth have a chance. Not to be rude, I just don't see these primitives putting up much of a fight.

[AACHOO]

Manwe would turn the Death star into a REALLY big lump of coal for the emperors stocking. Don't forget Valinor is populated by the BIG Guys proxys in the MiddleEarth.
The Emperor could use all the Force he wanted;as could his Dark Jedi but it would just take a song to turn them into harmless little butterflies flitting through the cosmos....

[Twilight]

Not only does middle earth have the valar for protection, it also has Ilúvatar. I think he would step in to protect his creation if it was needed. I don't think that the Empire has much of a chance against a God that is capable of creating whole universes out of nothingness.

[General Veers]

Eru does seem to be a diety of some sort. The Valar also appear to be a race of servitor demigods (like the flute players around Azathoth?) who use music to project force-like powers. However, from what I'm led to believe from the books, these powers are extra-planetary exclusive - no display of prowess, outside of an ability to manipulate tidal and plate tectonic forces, seems to have been exhibited. The Empire can perform said functions via the use of Planetary Devastators.

As for converting the mass of a Death Star into an equivalent mass of moth-like creatures, I have never seen anything of the sort in any of the books. Not that it isn't a possible outcome; clearly, the people on this board have me at a disadvantage when it comes to Tolkien arcana, it's just that I have no reason to beliee this would happen.

It seems to me that conflicts on the planet are resolved via "morality plays", i.e. they are a matter of a conflict of wills between opposing factions. One is managed by a dictatorial entity with claims of local divinity, that demands total and unquestioning obedience. The other seems to be a revolt, led by a rebel named "Melkor" or "Morgoth". Their internecine quarrel appears to have been conducted with rather primitive ground forces, leading me to infer that these entities are big on talk, but in fact rather weak in reality. Compared to the Galactic Empire, of course.

[Twilight]

The valar have more powers, they just choose not to always use them. They show constraint because they know that it would destroy the world to have a difect confrontation between them and Melkor. If there was a threat that was outside of the planet, then they could act.

The valar didn't only have force like abilities. They had sub-creation. THey couldn't create new matter, but they were free to alter what already exsisted as they pleased. I believe they would have the power to destroy a death star.

[General Veers]

Does anyone remember offhand any mythos references to extra-planetary activities? For example, was any reference made to the stars being "made", or as them being representative of anything, etc.? I seem to remember something about "jewels" (?)

I've heard Varda referred to as a "star-maker" also. Unless one takes this reference literally (!), the native's understanding of the nature of intergalactic space seems to be a bit... off. Apparently, the nature of stars and simarils are effectively equivalent, which would tend to be the sort of astronomical comprehension one would expect from a planet-bound race of primitives.

Sorry. I doubt the Imperial forces would be much deterred by such superstitious myths. This looks like another Endor walkover.

[General Veers]

"Then Varda went forth from the council, and she looked out from the height of Taniquetil, and beheld the darkness of Middle-earth beneath the innumerable stars, faint and far.
Then she began a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda.
She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn;
wherefore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Ea was Tintalle, the Kindler, was called after by the elves Elentari, Queen of the Stars."
--"Of the Coming of the Elves", Quenta Silmarillion, The Silmarillion

Come now. You don't really expect an intergalactic spacefaring empire to believe that.

[Twilight]

The empire can believe whatever it wants to. The belief of a group of individuals has no effect on what the actual truth is. Just because you believe that something can't hurt you doesn't mean that you won't get hurt by it.

[General Veers]

I still think the whole operation would run smoothly. It'd be an easy occupation. This sort of thing has been done on forest moons before.

Of course, there's always the remote possibility of a hobbit sneeking into the Death Star's reactor core works. But it's so wildly improbable, I doubt the Emperor would even bother to factor it into his plans.

[Twilight]

I sure hope Lucas never makes that into a movie. Just the thought of it gives me nightmares. Divine intervention aside, it would still be a rather interesting fight. The undying lands still have some rather nasty things in them. Orbital bombardment would make the war rather unfair though. That is one thing that I have to admit.

[General Veers]

You have to admit it though. If Lucas DID make a movie out of the confrontation, it would play better than the "Phantom Menace".

Personally, I've been swayed. I give this one to the Valar, although it would play differently depending on the Age it took place in:

1st Age: Vast chariots from the Void, ships that sailed through the dark blackness of the sky, would descend on the world. A terrible battle would be joined; the oceans would boil, the mountains would shake, the conflict would ensue for centuries. Finally, Eru would weary of the unending slaughter, and lift his hand... The blessings of the One would be withdrawn, and all these ships would plummet from the sky. Some of the wreck would become ancient fortresses, monuments, etc.

2nd Age: The Landing would be a shock to the inhabitants, and the Empire would win a quick foothold. Again, the battle would be fierce, lasting decades. Finally, Sauron would convince both the Imperials and their Numenorian allies to strike at Valinor. Just as the first dropships touched the Sacred Lands, a terrible storm would ensue. Space would bend, the ground-based stormtrooper forces would lose contact with their Star Destroyers (who would have simply appeared to have vanished - to the Imperial fleet, the same thing would have seemed to have happened to the entire planet).

The surviving remnants would retreat to Mordor, where they would participate in the debacle of Dagorlad, etc.

3rd Age: The Galactic Empire would make landfall, quickly seizing full control of the planet (Needless to say, Valinor isn't "visible" to them). A deal would be arranged, with Grima Wormtongue as planetary governor. For some odd reason, the Emperor himself would arrive, muttering something about hios "preciousss" and having his forces conduct fruitless searches for it (?)

At some point, an invisible hobbit would sneak into the Death Star hovering over the planet, and announce himself teh New Galactic Emperor. At that moment, a dimunitive Yoda-like gnome would bite his finger off, dance a jig, then fall into the central power coupling pit. The entire structure woud shudder ominously, and begin a slow planetfall...

At the last minute, all hobbits concerned would be rescued by the Millenium Falcon. The Death Star would fall into Mt. Orodruin. And there would be much rejoicing. (*yay*)

Am I close? Does this mean I'm banned now?

[Twilight]

A movie about the scenario isn't what bothered me. It was the idea of a hobit taking out a death star. I can handle a skillful person taking something out by stealth. I dislike when things happen by "accident". That is the part I don't want to see in a movie.

The valar didn't disapear in the third age, they just lived on a differant (can't spell) continent from where the main story was going on. They would still participate in as big of a deal as planitary invasion.

[webwizard333]

Actaully, the Empire wouldn't have an easy time with air supremacy. I would hate to go up against the dragons, whose fires could melt the ships (if they could met the One Rong . . .), then there would be all of those gale causing eagles, and IF Balrogs have wings, well, it would be unpleasant. And, what if Melkor worked with the Valar? He too is part of Middle Earth.

[Wayfarer]

Lol! Yeah, melkor would be tough. Hard to get ground supremacy from someone who inhabits most of the planet.

[afro-elf]

Actaully, the Empire wouldn't have an easy time with air supremacy. I would hate to go up against the dragons, whose fires could melt the ships (if they could met the One Rong . . .), then there would be all of those gale causing eagles, and IF Balrogs have wings, well, it would be unpleasant. And, what if Melkor worked with the Valar? He too is part of Middle Earth.

Dragon fire COULDN'T melt the one rong Or the one ring. ONLY dropping it in mount doom could.

The ships can resist the heat of planetary entry and they have shields that protect them from blaster fire.


The Eagles are NOT Rodan. ( the giant flying monster from the old Godzilla movies. I doubt that they could cause enough wind to damage ships that entered the atomsphere.

I don't think any of the above are super sonic, have targeting systems, can attack ships outside of the atomsphere or dodge weapons that are faster than light.

If the maia and valar are disembodied can the might get to space but can they act to cause physical damage.

As for melkor the Death star could destroy his physical form in flesk and earth.


it would be cool to see the calaquendi of the 1st age battle dark jedi

[webwizard333]

I thougt I had read that Anacalong might have been able to destroy the One Ring. Dragons did destroy some of the Dwarven rings.

Oh, I forgot, I don't think the standard TIE fighters have shields (or hyperdrive for that matter), or that may have been the EU.