Clive Staples Lewis

[sun-star]

Funny how the Hrossa prefaced everything with 'h', wasn't it? Just one of those funny little details that make the world more real, like Tolkien threw in all the time.

Indeed. Interestingly, however, Tolkien himself wasn't too keen on the philology in OOTSP. It's hardly on the scale of Elvish, is it?

[Starr Polish]

Perelandra is harder for me to get into...I've never been a huge fan of sci-fi as it is. I really liked OOTSP, when I finally found time to read it I flew through it.

Interesting...are the eldila, or Oyarsa (Oyarses?) angels? Thus, is Thulcandra's eldil Satan?

[Rían]

No, Tolkien's languages are in a class by themselves!!! Absolutely incredible!!!!

I didn't mean to compare their language skills, what I was trying to say was just those funny little details that they both put in that have nothing to do with the story, but just give the 'world' a more real feel. Tolkien commented that he didn't want to clear up all the mentions of various things in ME, he liked the feel that there were unexplained stories. (If that makes sense ... he said it much better, of course! )

OOTSP is much more enjoyable to me, too, but Perelandra is worth the read - some v. good insights. Definitely a heavier book, though. I haven't re-read That Hideous Strength in years - just too yucky for me, and the insights in it were not worth wading thru the depressing stuff, IMO. What do you think, crick?

Re the eldila/Oyarsa question -

[Starr Polish]

ARG! Don't just smile at me.

Well, toodles, I'm off to read a bit.

[Starr Polish]

My local library had Shadowlands! I'm going to watch it tonight if my stepfather gives up his post at the TV (he is already glued to that thing for nearly every hour he's home, and now we have a DVD player, giving him another excuse to watch the idiot box).

[crickhollow]

What do you think, crick?

THS was really scary! I couldn't read it at night. I mean, I did, but I shouldn't have.

To be honest, I found all of the Space trilogies difficult to get into. I think I mentioned before that Lewis wasn't allegorical in the strictest sense, his idea was to take these stories that we are so familiar with, and strip them of their sterilized, sunday-school surroundings, so that the meaning that had been lost could be found.

So, Perelandra is one of the most liberal of all of Lewis's "allegories". If we could do creation over again, if there was an extra character, if the dynamics were just a bit different. All of these hypothetical situations Lewis explores in Perelandra.

as far as THS, I really loved Lewis's portrayal of Merlin and how he handles the 'magical' aspect of this character, which tends to get so many Christians up in arms.

[Starr Polish]

Hmm...Ransom has just discovered the Green Lady. Why doesn't she know the word for peace? Is it because she's never heard of war?

I love the floating islands...very cool.

[Rían]

Starr - good observation An interesting character will enter the scene shortly.... and yes, I think the floating islands are cool, too - very imaginative.

crick - your comment re Merlin made me pull out THS again, think I'll re-read it (but Definitely not at night!!!) I just scanned it for a few minutes today and found some good stuff, but it is pretty icky and depressing overall. NOT a yearly read by any means, IMO! but it's probably been about 10 years, so I think I'll read it again.

[Rían]

OK, I'm about 1/3 of the way thru THS - I'm glad I'm re-reading it so far. There's lots of good things to think about. I think one of the most important is the way he exposes how much the media influences people's thinking. The various newspaper articles that Mark puts out are brillantly devious and deceptive. Lewis really hated newspapers and thought them worthless to read, basically because the news was always written from a slanted angle.

[Starr Polish]

I'm up to Chapter 12 (you guys are scaring me with your accounts of THS...). Hmm...

Something caught my interest rather quickly:

Often the Un-Man was unexpectedly repulsed by some simplicity which it seemd not to have anticipiated. Often, too, Ransom's own contributions to the terrible debate were for the moment successful. There were times when he thought, "Thank God! We've won at last." But the enemy was never tired, and Ransom grew more weary all the time; and presently he thought he could see signs that the Lady was becoming tired too.

Often times when arguing my case for Christianity, I get tired and bogged down by the sheer stubborn-ness of others, and irritated (as Ransom did when he began yelling at the Lady later). I feel like they have so many facts that they put so much faith that I can't ever win, and I should just back down and crawl back into my own little hole.

Also..."My name is also Ransom". Still trying to grasp what's going on there.

[Rían]

Starr - re your comment about "arguing my case for Christianity" - yes, I know what you mean, but I've been doing that somewhat on the evolution thread and it's been really different 'cause I'm approaching it a different way. Let me see if I can express it so it makes sense, and maybe it will help you.

At the top level, it's involved several things -
(1) I don't have to "win" the argument, I just have to obey what I think God is having me do and say (and if I do that, I win! Besides, I've already "won", or rather it's been given to me as a free gift, the greatest thing in the world! a right relationship to God.) I may be just planting a seed that someone else will see bloom down the road.
(2) I need to also be in obedience to the other responsibilities of my life. In other words, I am NOT responsible for "saving" someone else; that's God's responsibility to make sure they have a fair opportunity. So it is wrong for me to neglect God-given responsibilities to myself, my family and my friends because of a mistaken sense of "OMGoodness, I MUST respond immediately to all of these posts!" In fact, I've said several times on the thread that whoever wants to hear from me will probably have to wait a few days because I cannot neglect my family because as a Christian, it is a high priority for me. And actually, as I thought about it, I thought that that's important for them to hear, anyway - rather a contrast to the world's views. Also, waiting for an answer probably gives them more time to think about things.

Anyway, just 2 things that have helped me be able to post on a highly controversial and emotional thread and still be at peace and serve healthy dinners! (well, most of the time )

Oh, also I've felt led to only respond to SOME of the posts, not ALL of the posts. And I felt a very heavy burden to do so, and when I had responded, I felt totally at peace. As I said in the thread, I have such a great compassion for people who actually think that they are products of only beneficial mutations over a great deal of time, and I know God has even more compassion for them. What a terribly sad belief to have.

Anyway, I hope that might help you, it sure did for me, especially the whole "I don't have to win this, I just have to obey God" idea.

[Rían]

Yes, the "my name is also Ransom" is interesting ... it will be explained later on, if I remember correctly.

AND BTW, I stayed up late last night and finished THS (I'm a terrifically fast reader) and I really don't know quite what to say, because I came across the reasons why I didn't read it again for so long. There's some really gruesome stuff at the end. Perhaps Lewis was really fed up with a "pretty" face being put on evil; I don't know, but it's really pretty awful. The first half has lots of good insights, like I said, but I don't know if the whole book is worth reading; I would definitely not recommend it for younger readers (12, 13 or so). I believe you're 16 or so, is that right?

What do you think, crick? I'm talking about from the dinner party where the languages get confused on to the end, pretty much. But how can someone read HALF of a book???? I don't quite know what to say.

[Starr Polish]

Yeah, I'm sixteen. I've always had a fairly accelerated reading level (I had a 12th grade reading level in 4th grade), and I think I can handle gruesome writing fairly well. Still, I was a bit taken aback at the destruction of the animals on Perelandra when I came across that, but probably for the same reason Ransom was.

And yes, I need to remind myself that talking about God is not about 'winning', but it's something I'll have to learn. I absolutely hate losing, in any form (but I'm getting better!_. Not to the point that I'm a sore loser, or winner, but, well...for example, I'm in track, and I'm not the best runner, but I'm often the anchor (last runner) in the two mile relay. The anchor is one of the most important runners, because we have to catch up all of the slack the rest of the team made. Our two mile relay teams aren't very good, and we're usually last when it's my turn to run, with the other girl about fifty yards ahead. Let me tell you, it's hard to catch up to that, but I've done it...bah..enough gloating.

I'm almost done with Perelandra, going to get THS soon.

[webwizard333]

I've been thinking for a little bit, how to say what I want to about Till We Have Faces as after reading it, I wasn't too sure about my opinions on this. I had started out really liking it, particularly the dialogue about sacrifice, which I was mentally relating to Jesus Christ, as it was the sort of thing I expect and enjoy from Lewis' books. I also liked how he described her uncertainty concerning her actions and her own feelings about what was happening to her. The characters were especially believable for me, partially becayse I have a sister who sometimes behaves the way hers (the superficial one) did. The Fox's talks about the poets' lies had added interest for me, in part because we're studying Ovid in my English classes who looked at his own mythical works as lies and freely admitted it. My problem with it, for me, came at the end. For me, the good sister was still in the right and the gods were wrong. Lewis wrote her struggle in such a way that I was really pitying her and hating the gods, who I feel did not satisfactorly answer her complaints. So, Perelandra remains my favourite of his works. Btw, crickhollow, your post concerning Perlandra as his most liberal allegory really opened up that aspect of what Lewis tried to do with his stories, thanks.

[Rían]

Hi, webwizard333!

I'm so glad to find someone else who has read TWHF! It's a complex work, isn't it?

May I ask if you are a Christian? I don't recall seeing whether or not you have said you are. I only ask because I'll know how to word my replies a little better, as Christians usually share some common experiences.

from your post:

My problem with it, for me, came at the end. For me, the good sister was still in the right and the gods were wrong. Lewis wrote her struggle in such a way that I was really pitying her and hating the gods, who I feel did not satisfactorly answer her complaints.

By "the good sister", did you mean Psyche? How did you think the gods were wrong in regards to her? Or did you mean Orual? (or did you mean Psyche in the 2nd sentence and Orual in the 3rd?) Did you realize that Orual herself was completely satisfied with the answer of the gods? Did you see how the gods revealed to her what she was REALLY thinking, as opposed to how she had worded her thoughts? Anyway, I'd like to discuss it, if you would

[webwizard333]

It's a complex work, isn't it? May I ask if you are a Christian? I don't recall seeing whether or not you have said you are. I only ask because I'll know how to word my replies a little better, as Christians usually share some common experiences.

In terms of its complexity, very much so, but still retaining much of the basic mythology on which it was founded. I am a practicing Catholic Christian.

By "the good sister", did you mean Psyche? How did you think the gods were wrong in regards to her? Or did you mean Orual? (or did you mean Psyche in the 2nd sentence and Orual in the 3rd?) Did you realize that Orual herself was completely satisfied with the answer of the gods? Did you see how the gods revealed to her what she was REALLY thinking, as opposed to how she had worded her thoughts? Anyway, I'd like to discuss it, if you would

Unfortunately, I read the book a week ago, and while I can easily remember plots and summaries, my weakness lies in remembering character names. By the good sister, I meant the protagonist, Orual (thanks for giving me her name). I did see how Orual was completely satisfied with their answer, but I was not, I'm referring to answering her complaints only with love. By the part of showing her what she really thought, do you mean when she was reading her book and seeing vindictiveness in her writing, if so I caught on to that, but I never saw that in the first part of the book and so I never knew where she had altered events in her writing out of her emotions.

[crickhollow]

A quick re-reading may give you some of those answers, ww333. Most particularly anywhere Orual restates that she genuinely acted for the sole benefit of Psyche. Over and over again: it wasn't my fault. I didn't know. Psyche shouldn't have left me.

It is important to realize that the gods didn't twist the past, as Orual claims after her run-in with the priest in the forest. Orual herself twisted her account of the events.

most of the book was written well before Orual's trial. She was still full of bitterness and denial.

That whole schpeil may not change your mind, but there you have it anyway.

your post concerning Perlandra as his most liberal allegory really opened up that aspect of what Lewis tried to do with his stories, thanks.

*pats self on back* You're most welcome. Happy to be of service.

[Rían]

Any updates for us, Starr?

[Starr Polish]

I was going to start THS, but I haven't yet. I still have it, it's not due for awhile but I highly doubt I'll be reading it soon. Something rather serious is going on with my family right now, and I've decided to dive into some literature that I know will lift my spirits (LOTR, mostly). The reports you've given on THS made it lose its appeal, at least for the time being. Right now isn't a good time for dark literature.

[Rían]

I think that's a good idea - it's kinda like Screwtape - rather a downer, although good info in it. Save it for another time - it'll keep. I'll certainly keep you and your family in my prayers.