Chronicles of Narnia

[englishnerd]

Hey FredB, it's so good to find someone else whose fave is the Dawn Treader! Most of the others I've talked to said it was their most unfavorite. btw, the mouse's name is Reepicheep :-)

Reumandeur...check out the symbolism in "the horse and his boy" if you think about it in terms of the story of Moses...wandering through the desert, Aravis' servant-maid being beaten for her sin, the flight through the desert to "Narnia and the North!" Aslan revealing himself to Bree on the wall at the Hermit's rest...let me know if you see it.

[Fred Baggins]

Reepicheep! Thankyou, much!

[Reumandar]

I like the Dawn Treader it's awesome!!!
and I will read the horse and his boy, and tell you if I get it if you really want me to.

[englishnerd]

I didn't get the moses thing until someone else pointed it out to me...but now I can totally see all of those parallels. it's not straight allegory, of course, but there are similarities in the lessons learned, etc. it's pretty cool, hope I didn't spoil it for you, R.

[Lief Erikson]

I didn't see any of the parallels in the series except for the ones in the first book, which were plain as day to me.

But I don't feel very guilty, so that's all right .

[englishnerd]

Well, the parallels in the other stories are much less obvious than in the Lion, Witch Wardrobe...except for things like the creation imagery in The Magician's Nephew, and the New Heaven and New Earth/ Revelation imagery in The Last Battle. Most of the others include principles that are relatable to the Christian faith. Reepicheep in his never quitting, but going on even in the face of lonliness, loss of resources, and an unknown future...and in the Silver Chair, Eustace's confirmation of belief that breaks the witch's spell..."If it is all a dream--well, our dream world beats this world clean hollow! I'll keep believing in a real sun and in a real Aslan even if there is, as you say, no real sun or Aslan to believe in!" (totally paraphrased, but you get the gist). And again in the Dawn Treader, when Eustace the dragon (a form put on him as a consequence of his greediness) sheds his dragon form and bathes (think baptism) according to Aslan's direction...a total symbolic episode of putting off the old and being raised to new life. I've heard many people complain that the allegorical perspective takes away the power of the story, but I think these "illuminations" make it so much more powerful...at least, maybe I just think so because I'm a Christian...

[Reumandar]

Originally posted by englishnerd
hope I didn't spoil it for you, R.

I have read it.. I just read it though.... I don´t really ever see (maybe I'm a little slow(Jk)) them ( maybe I am a little slow )

[Lief Erikson]

Englishnerd, thanks for cluing me in on some of those symbolic instances! I really didn't see them, and that does make the story seem more interesting to me. I didn't enjoy it an enormous amount the first time I heard the series read. I liked them, but not very much, and I wasn't looking for symbolism at all.

[IronParrot]

Good analysis, englishnerd. However, I think Lewis' placement on the allegory-applicability spectrum (i.e. intent of author vs. openness of interpretability by the reader) is starkly different from Tolkien... and I far prefer Tolkien.

"I've heard many people complain that the allegorical perspective takes away the power of the story, but I think these "illuminations" make it so much more powerful...at least, maybe I just think so because I'm a Christian..."

Could be. Personally, my complaint about the allegory isn't that it takes away from the power (the ending of The Last Battle was a very powerful segment) - but on many occasions, it seemed to me that Lewis was needlessly sacrificing plot (or at least drawing focus away from it) for the purpose of trying to demonstrate something about Christianity. In short, it seemed a bit intrusive from time to time.

Not that I don't like the books - I quite enjoyed them. But I point to The Horse and His Boy as something that was perhaps just a touch too out of place, probably as a result of its emphasis on allegory.

[Lief Erikson]

Strange. It was near the top of my favorites in the series, and that was before the allegories were explained to me.

But I agree with you about the difference between Tolkien's and C.S. Lewis's emphasizing Christianity. Tolkien had several circumstances and themes in his that were decidedly Christian, but his overall aim was for a better story. C.S. Lewis, I think, was focused much more on purposely making allegories and connections. Whether that detracts from the story or not is a matter of opinion (I likewise think that it adds to it another level of depth).

[Miranda]

I think Lewis' books are great because they can work on so many levels. I babysit for a few families and find the Chronicles are great bed time stories. One family is completely non religious and the other is very religious. The kid from the first family loved all the books but just on the simple story but the second kid stopped my after Aslan came back from the stone table and said "Is Aslan meant to be Jesus? Jesus came back too." I thought it was so cool that a six year old kid could find the parallels so easily and appreciate them. Everytime we reached a bit he recognised as biblical he stopped me and told me about it. It was great because people had told me that it had religious references but not being religious myself I couldn't see them so it was nice to be shown and through the eyes and innocent, honest words of a child. Mx

[Reumandar]

I think I am really really slow... 'cuz I didn't get any of this stuff ... I sorta got the Aslan thing but that was only sorta...

[sun-star]

The only part of the allegory I understood when I first read the books (i.e. without having it pointed out to me) was about Aslan, and I think I preferred it that way. I'm only speculating, but I think that as a child I would have found "so this equals that, and this equals that" rather frustrating. It would have destroyed my belief in the characters as characters, and in Narnia as a real world, if I were always looking for what they "really meant".
Now that I'm older, the allegory does enrich my enjoyment of the stories, and help me in a moral way (if that makes any sense). But they can still be enjoyed as stories, as well as moral lessons.

[Lief Erikson]

You're quite right, sun-star. I agree completely .

And thanks for sharing that story, Miranda; it was really sweet.

[englishnerd]

Hey sunstar, you are quite right about the story as story...in point of fact, when Katherine Lindskoog pointed out some of the parallels and significant allegorical points in a grad thesis paper that she later sent to Lewis, he indicated that he much appreciated her viewpoint, and many of the ideas she presented he hadn't even thought of in the writing of the chronicles, but he thought she was quite right in her analysis. The thing is, the story is central. But Lewis (and Tolkien, for that matter)saw story...any story...as a symbol, sign, or NAME for the REAL story. Lewis drew in the parallels a bit more clearly and definitely than Tolkien, choosing to make his names for the real thing a bit more obvious. Tolkien's story uses detail, subtlety, and complexity to point in the same direction as Lewis, though Lewis uses clarity, simplicity, and brevity as his main tools. There's really no comparison, exept that they were friends and partners in their ideas. But story is the main thing, NOT allegory. :-) in a way, allegory is our "name" for a story that points to the REAL story.

--> where I'm getting this is a conversation reported between Lewis and Tolkien just previous to Lewis' conversion. They were talking about stories, and Tolkien pointed to a grand tree along the path, and said (think of treebeard!) "look at that. Imagine all the strength, the power, and the history of that tree....and what do we call it? a TREE! such a brief name for such an enormous thing. what if all of our stories and tales are but names or symbols we use to point to the real story, the true story?"

[englishnerd]

wow. i guess that was a train-stopper. this thread has been inactive for a while! sorry, guys. didn't mean to cut out discussion. as an opener for a new topic, what do you think of Puzzle in the Last Battle? He has an interesting part in the drama. I forget the Ape's name... oh yeah! Shift. Their relationship always puzzled me...ooooh, sorry for that pun.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It's been a while since I read those books, and now I don't even have a copy of them anymore. I'm almost certain that the Magician's Nephew was my favorite, though I liked them all. I think Lucy was my favorite character, too. If you mean the Earthlings. If you mean Narnians, I really don't know.

[Faelnor]

Mmm, narnia, my favorite books when I was little. My dad read them to me first then I read them by myself. My favorite book is The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. And my favorite character was......darn, I can't remember what his name was, but he was a mouse, I remember that. And my favorite "Earthling" character, as Gwaimir put it, was Peter.

[Lief Erikson]

Ah, your favorite character was Reepecheep! Good choice (Sorry if I spelled his name wrong)!


I can't very well remember the Last Battle- sorry Englishnerd .

[Diaxion]

I read the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe and that was a good book but the others were pretty bad so bad that I quit reading them which is rare for me to quit a book