Lewis vs Tolkien vs Pullman: Death Match in the Cage!

[GrayMouser]

Mods, I suppose this could just as easily fit in the Tolkien sub-forum.

Pullman on Tolkien:

His story is a rival to the narratives put forward by two earlier Oxford writers, J.R.R. Tolkien’s “The Lord of the Rings” and C.S. Lewis’s “The Chronicles of Narnia”. Pullman loathes the way the children in Narnia are killed in a car-crash. “I dislike his Narnia books because of the solution he offers to the great questions of human life: is there a God, what is the purpose, all that stuff, which he really does engage with pretty deeply, unlike Tolkien who doesn’t touch it at all. ‘The Lord of the Rings’ is essentially trivial. Narnia is essentially serious, though I don’t like the answer Lewis comes up with. If I was doing it at all, I was arguing with Narnia. Tolkien is not worth arguing with”

http://www.moreintelligentlife.com/node/697

As for Narnia - I've expressed my detestation for that series on several occasions and at length, so I won't say very much about it here, except to note something that some commentators miss when lumping Lewis and Tolkien together, which is this: that Tolkien was a Catholic, for whom the basic issues of life were not in question, because the Church had all the answers. So nowhere in 'The Lord of the Rings' is there a moment's doubt about those big questions. No-one is in any doubt about what's good or bad; everyone knows where the good is, and what to do about the bad. Enormous as it is, TLOTR is consequently trivial. Narnia, on the other hand, is the work of a Protestant - and an Ulster Protestant at that, for whom the individual interaction with the Bible and with God was a matter of daily struggle and endless moral questioning. That's the Protestant tradition. So in Narnia the big questions are urgent and compelling and vital: is there a God? Who is it? How can I recognise him? What must I do to be good? I profoundly disagree with the answers that Lewis offers - in fact, as I say, I detest them - but Narnia is a work of serious religious engagement in a way that TLOTR could never be.

BTW, got both of these quotes originally from here:

http://maryvictrix.wordpress.com/200...izing-tolkien/

[inked]

Pullman as the referee, huh? Or are his views up to a fight?

[The Gaffer]

Groovy quotes, GM.

I would broadly agree, I think, though only if you see the books as moral explorations. LOTR isn't, as he says, though you could argue that it's trivial to even consider it in this way. And I think he misses the way in which Sam and Frodo develop throughout the book, which is about putting morals into action.

[Earniel]

Hm, while Pullman's trilogy was okay, I hardly think it has enough 'staying power' for it to be set as rival to Tolkien's and Lewis' work, just as I'm inclined to consider Pullman as author a lightweight too, compared to the others.

Tolkien and Lewis were also more subtle in working religious themes in their work. What I remember mostly of the Golden Compass trilogy was that the Church was the big bad. I don't quite recall noticing any other moral theme of importance.

In short: IMO Tolkien and Lewis would finish Pullman off just in time for tea and crumpets.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Hm, while Pullman's trilogy was okay, I hardly think it has enough 'staying power' for it to be set as rival to Tolkien's and Lewis' work, just as I'm inclined to consider Pullman as author a lightweight too, compared to the others.

Tolkien and Lewis were also more subtle in working religious themes in their work. What I remember mostly of the Golden Compass trilogy was that the Church was the big bad. I don't quite recall noticing any other moral theme of importance.

In short: IMO Tolkien and Lewis would finish Pullman off just in time for tea and crumpets.

I say ditto to that...

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by inked

Well, Phillip Pullman thinks there are Christian influences in Tolkien's work! See here: http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=15002

Of course, PP thinks that's a reason to discredit Tollers! But I'd bet PP would protest anyone discounting his work because it was written by an atheist who thought his world view explained everything as PP discounts Tolkien's Roman Catholicism.

And Tolkien's account of the Creation is certainly Hebraically influenced and blended with Norse and other mythologies in addition to its Christian content - to start at the beginning, as it were.

I profoundly disagree with this dude about JRRT. If anyone is inconsequential it would be him, why is he even mentioned in the same sentence with these guys.

So nowhere in 'The Lord of the Rings' is there a moment's doubt about those big questions. No-one is in any doubt about what's good or bad; everyone knows where the good is, and what to do about the bad. Enormous as it is, TLOTR is consequently trivial.

Hmmmm, he must have been reading another LOTR. What of Boromirs struggles with what is right and what is wrong, Galadriels history leading up to her refusing the one ring, Denethor, Theoden and even Frodo, to name a few.

Sounds like an inconsequential author griping at his betters.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Hmmmm, he must have been reading another LOTR. What of Boromirs struggles with what is right and what is wrong, Galadriels history leading up to her refusing the one ring, Denethor, Theoden and even Frodo, to name a few.

Yes, and Faramir who wanted to take the ring!

[Coffeehouse]

Calling The Lord of the Rings as trivial is silly Of course Tolkien is influenced by Christianity, he was after all a Christian and his life and views of the world will ultimately colour such a massive piece of writing that devises an entire story of Creation, age-spans of many thousands of years and a fight between the good and the evil. It's only natural.

But what Tolkien does so brilliantly, which is anything but trivial (it's a work of genious) is write a story that anyone can relate to, whether she is religious or not, born in the 50s or born today.

There are some eternal conflicts of human nature (examplified through a range of races in the Lord of the Rings whom all are 'human').
There are some fundamental truths that Tolkien deals with and realities of the world like friendship, sacrifice, war, co-existence, isolation, fear, common purpose, the decay (and rebirth) of the environment and the passage of time which few have managed to combine so eloquently in one work of fiction.

I like the Lord of the Rings not only because it's a really good story but because Tolkien exposes the detached, grim reality that comes with the destruction of the natural world (Isengard and Mordor), and that it does not lead to peace or happiness but war and egoism. Through the lives of the Lorien-elves, the Ents and Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest we see that working with the natural world leads to harmony in contrast to an arrogant belief that one can override and use the natural world to one's own choosing.

Here's I think a Catholic, or at least Christian influence. There probably have been many persons and way of lives throughout history, here and there, that have had as a life-rule to coexist and adapt to nature, not try to work against it or violently uproot it, but Tolkien was a Christian and he may have looked in that direction as well as into the worldview of the mythologies he studied.

Although we have environmentalism today and a wider global awareness of this issue (despite it rarely being followed..), Tolkien might well have been influenced by St. Francis of Aussi, the 13th century Catholic friar that advised the protection of animals and nature as a Christian deed, or Jean Calvin, the 16th century theologian who founded Calvinism, who stated that although "nature is created for humans we must nurture it". I think it likely that such views in combination with Tolkiens love for the English forest shows an example of a Christian influence that Tolkien has universalized and personified with the likes of Tom Bombadil's non-ownership, the elves' enchanted relationship and near-worship of the forests, along with the age-old herder Ents that roam Fangorn forest

When Pullman argues that there is no big debate on the tough questions I think he fires in the wrong direction. When Tolkien exposes the barbaric industry that Sarumann creates in Isengard and the destruction of the green landscape that existed there he may not need to point out that it is not a good thing (we all understand that), but who doesn't realise the striking parallel to our own world of the non-stop industrialised machines whom work day and night, without pause, and who consume the natural world ever faster until it becomes unsustainable. Tolkien shows with Isengard how bad it can go, and although everyone realises Sarumann has become corrupt, the wizard himself does not view it this way. He wants order, power, wealth and he wants it quickly and it's dismayful to acknowledge that the same drive for natural resources and ever more demands on the natural world was and is the great story behind the story of the 20th century.
Pullman sees no interesting 'provocation' or discussion arise from the Lord of the Rings, I see it completely different.

[hectorberlioz]

I totally agree with CH. Especially the last paragraph.

Gotta run! (Class in 20 mins!)

[GrayMouser]

Hmmmm... was thinking more about the theological aspects of it. Tolkien claimed LoTR to be not only a Christian work, but essentially a Catholic one, a claim that, as far as I can see, is happily repeated by Catholics commentators while being studiously ignored by Protestants.

I must admit that I've never been interested enough to actually delve into the doctrinal manifestations:

" "To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different," laughed Lindir. "Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business."

Other than the obvious mariolatry of singing hymns to the Queen of Heaven, but I was interested to see Pullman making this point.

Pullman, while famously an atheist, drew his inspiration from John Milton, the great Protestant and anti-Royalist. I would have liked to hear what instances in the Narnia books he regarded as being specifically Protestant, but unfortunately the interviewer didn't follow up and I haven't been able to find any elaboration elsewhere.

Tolkien was known to have to have greatly disliked Narnia for literary reasons, but there has been some discussion of the conflict between and Lewis and him on doctrinal grounds:

On 11 November, 1964, almost a year after C.S. Lewis's death, Tolkien composed a letter to David Kolb, a Jesuit, wherein he wrote:

It is sad that 'Narnia' and all that part of C.S.L.'s work should remain outside the range of my sympathy, as much of my work was outside his. Also, I personally found Letters to Malcolm a distressing and in parts horrifying work. I began a commentary on it, but if finished it would not be publishable. (Tolkien, Letters 352)

"Letters to Malcolm and the trouble with Narnia:C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien and their 1949 crisis."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...n21130448/pg_9

This essay, by a Catholic writer, discusses some of the reasons Tolkien would have found 'Letters to Malcolm' " distressing and in parts horrifying" - basically, he sees a lot of attacks on Catholicism in it- and speculates how, in retrospect anyway, Tolkien might have seen some of this in the Narnia books.

The commentary Tolkien wrote was called "Ulsterior Motives" (get it?-presumably this was just a working title) - but for some unknown reason has yet to be published by the Tolkien estate, which seems to have found time to publish every other half-scribbled scrap of paper he ever wrote- stirring up trouble with the Lewisites bad for business?

Also interesting that Tolkien says "as much of my work was outside his."

AFAIK Lewis had nothing but enthusiastic praise for Tolkien's published works, which would only have been the Hobbit and LotR, though I've read elsewhere that he privately thought Tolkien's poetry was pretty terrible- with which I heartily agree.

[hectorberlioz]

Perhaps later in this semester I can help out in the JRRT/LOTR/Catholicism department, since my Lit. class is focusing on his work.

We've only just started, so nothing revelatory has been revealed .

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Perhaps later in this semester I can help out in the JRRT/LOTR/Catholicism department, since my Lit. class is focusing on his work.

We've only just started, so nothing revelatory has been revealed .

Aww, come on, nothing spoils a good discussion like someone who actually knows what they're talking about

[brownjenkins]

Tolkien realized that the most important thing about life, regardless of the big picture, is people. Lewis was a bit more obsessed with the big picture. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Pullman is just grumpy.

[hectorberlioz]

And the great thing is that--despite each man's big differences with eachother--I can appreciate all three's fiction. Tolkien with his resplendant history, CSL with his heart-warming allegory, and Pullman in all his grumpy glory, to use your description BJ .

[inked]

Here's an interesting 1o minutes on Tolkien and words and their meanings with some reference to Lewis:

http://www.marshillaudio.org/resourc...AJ-49-Wood.mp3

Pullman not included per se but I think he would fill the bill as postmodernity product and facilitator.

[Varnafindë]

Is there a button or a link anywhere to report spam posts?

[Earniel]

There should be a little triangle, like a traffic sign, under the name of each member that will allow you to notify the mods and bring the post under their attention. Or else there's a thread in the Feedback forum where you can alert mods to spammers as well.

Spam post and spammer deleted.

[brownjenkins]

You mean this topic, or just inked in general?

[inked]

Good one, BJ!

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

You mean this topic, or just inked in general?

Now that the spam post has been removed, it looks like I was complaining about inked, doesn't it?

Edit:
And now that we're on a new page, you need to go back to look - and to read the newest on-topic post ...