Lament for Susan Pevensie

[hectorberlioz]

Allow me to defend Lewis' development of Susan for a bit. First of all, in the interest of character development. Susan was never as funny as Lucy, as much of a leader as Peter, nor went through a character transformation as Edmund did. So rather than let her remain the background sibling of the Pevensies, he decided to use her as an example.

Second, I have read The Last Battle, and the supposed dumping on is being exaggerated. Big time. Yes, Susan didn't get to go back to Narnia---but that was because she had stopped believing in it. She became more interested in everyday life. It doesn't say that she stopped believing in Aslan/God though. So she lost her childlike wonder and decided to be "real." But that doesn't preclude her from heaven or anything. Belief in Narnia is not the same as belief in God. And remember that Aslan tells the Pevensies that they must find him in their own world.

There

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

But that doesn't preclude her from heaven or anything. Belief in Narnia is not the same as belief in God. And remember that Aslan tells the Pevensies that they must find him in their own world.

There

Good point. And as we're never told about her death, we aren't told that she doesn't get to heaven.

[hectorberlioz]

Exactly. And I have a feeling that all this talk of Susan's supposed condemnation comes from Philip Pullman, who hates CS Lewis.

[Varnafindë]

Possibly some of it - but I think it predated his writings.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Exactly. And I have a feeling that all this talk of Susan's supposed condemnation comes from Philip Pullman, who hates CS Lewis.

What? Just because I don't find Lewis' treatment of Susan fair (although I can understand the story-wise reasons for doing it this way), I can't have come to this conclusion on my own, without Philip Pullman's help? Gee, thanks.

[hectorberlioz]

No, not you specifically . But in general, he was the one who promulgated the idea that Lewis somehow killed off Susan.

[Varnafindë]

I think we were discussing Susan's fate in the days of the old "newsgroups" discussions on Internet, in the early 1990s, before the invention of the World Wide Web. I hadn't heard of Philip Pullman then - he didn't invent the idea.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

No, not you specifically . But in general, he was the one who promulgated the idea that Lewis somehow killed off Susan.

Hm, I never even heard him saying something like that. I agree with Varna, he did not invent the sentiment. Which is not saying he may not have been a vocal supporter, but he is not the source.

[inked]

Go over to wikipedia and read the Narnia controversies section. A sample...

Sexuality

C. S. Lewis and the Chronicles of Narnia have received various criticisms over the years, much of it by fellow authors. Allegations of sexism centre around the description of Susan Pevensie in The Last Battle where Lewis characterizes Susan as being "no longer a friend of Narnia" and interested "in nothing nowadays except lipstick, nylons and invitations".

J.K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter book series, has said:

There comes a point where Susan, who was the older girl, is lost to Narnia because she becomes interested in lipstick. She's become irreligious basically because she found sex, I have a big problem with that.[26]

Philip Pullman, author of the His Dark Materials trilogy and so fierce a critic of Lewis' work as to be dubbed "the anti-Lewis",[18][19][20][21] calls the Narnia stories "monumentally disparaging of women",[27] interpreting the Susan passages this way:

Susan, like Cinderella, is undergoing a transition from one phase of her life to another. Lewis didn't approve of that. He didn't like women in general, or sexuality at all, at least at the stage in his life when he wrote the Narnia books. He was frightened and appalled at the notion of wanting to grow up.[28]

Among others, fan-magazine editor Andrew Rilstone opposes this view, arguing that the "lipsticks, nylons and invitations" quote is taken out of context. They maintain that in The Last Battle, Susan is excluded from Narnia explicitly because she no longer believes in it. At the end of The Last Battle Susan is still alive and may end up rejoining her family. Moreover, Susan's adulthood and sexual maturity are portrayed in a positive light in The Horse and His Boy, and therefore are argued to be unlikely reasons for her exclusion from Narnia. Additionally, Lewis supporters cite the positive roles of women in the series, including Jill Pole in The Silver Chair, Aravis Tarkheena in The Horse and His Boy, Polly Plummer in The Magician's Nephew, and particularly Lucy Pevensie in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Jacobs asserts that Lucy is the most admirable of the human characters, and that, in general, the girls come off better than the boys through the stories.[11][29][30]

[edit] Race

In addition to the sexism accusation, Pullman has also implicated The Chronicles of Narnia series in fostering racism,[27][31] alleging that for Lewis:

Death is better than life; boys are better than girls; light-coloured people are better than dark-coloured people; and so on. There is no shortage of such nauseating drivel in Narnia, if you can face it.[28]

About racism in The Horse and His Boy specifically, newspaper editor Kyrie O'Connor writes:

It's just too dreadful. While the book's storytelling virtues are enormous, you don't have to be a bluestocking of political correctness to find some of this fantasy anti-Arab, or anti-Eastern, or anti-Ottoman. With all its stereotypes, mostly played for belly laughs, there are moments you'd like to stuff this story back into its closet.[32]

O'Connor advised that parents tell their children before reading the books:

In his time, people thought it was amusing to make fun of other cultures. We don't. Read the stories, ask questions, and remember that the person who wrote this story was altogether too human.[32]

The racism critique is based on a negative representation of other races, particularly the Calormenes. Novelist Philip Hensher and other critics regard the portrayal of Calormene culture as an attack on Islam.[33]


+++++++++++

Pullman has merely been the most vocal amongst the lot lately. Notoriously his work fails to compete. Might be more than a bit of jealousy involved, but I do think that his oft repeated hatred of Narnia is due to his shearly materialistic world view. Any point of attack will do for him. Of course, the history of atheistic-based governments and socialist systems with the consignment of hundreds of millions to death on whims of leaders and for the public good give such a rousing endorsement to Pullman's claims that he has conquered the world, eh? NOT. Even the lead female star in his movie has repudiated his views of Narnia and publically stated that had she known the full extent of his views, she would have declined the role. OUCH! That's gotta hurt, Phil!


I am not surprised that because of Lewis' influence, steadily increasing by the by, that many politically correct folks have their panties and undies in a twist. A thorough-going medievalist is not going to make the current weenies very happy now, is he. Note that the attacks are similar on Tolkien as well.

Modernity/postmodernity are failed results of a failed Enlightenment tradition diverted solely to materialism as a means -no, THE means- of understanding life. That's why critics are so vocal. They wish to hide their own failures by alleging those of others. One realises how deeply this cultural defect extends when even authors most like Lewis and Tolkien exhibit so little understanding.

Ah, well, ... the bankruptcy of the failed Enlightenment project is exhibiting itself very well, and I doubt these diversions will succeed in removing that reality from the public's mind.

[hectorberlioz]

Philip Pullman is CS Lewis' most famous living critic. He promulgated the idea that Susan had been condemned to hell by Lewis. He wrote about it famously in newspaper columns for the New York Times or The Yorker, or some such publication.

I didn't say he invented it. But likely the discussion on the internet was ignited by his bringing up the subject.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by inked

Among others, fan-magazine editor Andrew Rilstone opposes this view, arguing that the "lipsticks, nylons and invitations" quote is taken out of context. They maintain that in The Last Battle, Susan is excluded from Narnia explicitly because she no longer believes in it. At the end of The Last Battle Susan is still alive and may end up rejoining her family. Moreover, Susan's adulthood and sexual maturity are portrayed in a positive light in The Horse and His Boy, and therefore are argued to be unlikely reasons for her exclusion from Narnia.

Andrew Rilstone is one of those I remember from the internet discussions of the early 1990s.

[cee2lee2]

I first read the Narnia stories in a Christian Lit class at Oral Roberts University in the early 1970's. At that time, part of our discussion was focused on the absence of Susan in the last book. We were ( and I have remained ) sad about Susan because we interpreted her absence as meaning she has abandoned her faith.

But I am open to other interpretations. I haven't done much research on the books or Lewis beyond that class but would like to think that Lewis left open the possibility of Susan returning to her faith and, at the last, joining her family "further up and further in." I appreciate the discussion here.

[nasuada]

I believe that after susan is left in the world,her parents and siblings .she comes to believe again because of this,and she hasn't died yet either,So when she dies she goes to be with them again in aslans land.Thats my idea.C.S. Lewis never said thats why she doesn't belive anymore(Because of lipstick)and he never said she wouldn't believe in narnia again.and like some of the others were saying,she is the example of when people lose their faith,but that doesn't mean she can't be found again.

[Midge]

Hmmm... Long time since I thought about this one. First of all, I think that Susan really had set up an idol for herself: herself. This is based on several clues from the books, like in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, Susan went to America with her parents because she would benefit the most from the trip, while her siblings were left in England with relatives (or the Professor). Later, Lucy is tempted to say the spell to give her "beauty beyond the lot of mortals" and she sees herself as being prettier than Susan, who is considered "the beauty of the family". Susan has plenty of time and support to be vain. It is almost not surprising that she got taken up by lipstick, nylons, and other things.

I am not saying she will never come back. I am not going to speculate and hope. C.S. Lewis does not condemn her, nor does he save her. It kind of reminds me of what Uncle Andrew did in The Magician's Nephew, when he convinces himself that he doesn't hear the animals saying words, but only making noises. Susan convinces herself that Narnia was simply a game the children played when they were younger. She might even have convinced herself of this when she was a child in England. Aslan gives the gift of sleep to Uncle Andrew despite his disbelief. Perhaps He gave Susan the gift of coming back to get her to believe. His grace is never ending and He may give her more grace in days to come.

However, I think we can definitely say that with her belief in Narnia went her belief in Aslan/God, particularly at the time of the train crash. Her actions as described by the Friends of Narnia are those of an idolater, not of a Christian.

And here's something interesting that we're not told explicitly: Mr. and Mrs. Pevensie must have been Christians because they ended up in the England within the England, which is an extension of the Aslan's country as Narnia within the Narnia was.

[GrayMouser]

Mrs. Pevensie: "My goodness, what happened?"

Mr.P: "I'm not sure, dear, I was just leaning out the carriage window,
because the train seemed to be going far too fast for the curve,
when suddenly there was a loud crash and a jolt and...here we
are."

Mrs. P: "But where is here?"

Mr. P: "Well, it looks like England...but a bigger and brighter England"

Mrs. P: "Do you mean we've died and gone to a better place?"

Mr.P: " It certainly seems that way."

Mrs. P: "Look! Over there, across that valley! It's Lucy! And Peter and
Edmund! Why, that means they must be dead, too. How wonderful!"

Mr.P: "Yes, and old Uncle Digby and Aunt Polly- not so old now. And look,
isn't that Eustace and his little friend Jill?"

Mrs.P: "Why, yes, it is. Such a nice girl- I'm so happy to see she died
so young, too. What luck our whole family was killed in the same train crash"

Mr.P: "My dear, I've lived many years, and I've never seen a thing called
Luck."

Mrs.P: "You're right, of course- it must have been some marvellous Higher
Power that killed all our children at the same time."

Mr. P: "Almost all..."

Mrs.P: "My poor dear, I know you wish Susan was dead, too. But just think, if she'd died now she would have been an apostate, and gone into the Shadows, and we'd have been parted from her forever. But, the way it is, there's a chance she can regain her faith, and maybe step in front of a bus or something."

Mr. P:" My dear, you always know what to say to cheer me up."

Mrs. P: "There's just something about this Place that makes one think such
happy thoughts."

(Hand in hand, they walk Further Up and Further In, breaking into song. )

Always look on the bright side of Life...
De doo, De doo, de doodly doo de doo.

[Earniel]

That is... rather disturbing.

[GrayMouser]

Yes...Frodo "went West", but there was a definite sense of loss and mourning. Sam, Merry and Pippin (adolescents to young adults) settled down, got married and raised children.

Harry Potter and Co. all apparently grew up in the normal manner, as did Lyra and Will in His Dark Materials (though separated beyond worlds).

Lewis had to kill all his protagonists as teenagers (Peter a young adult) to give them a happy ending and keep them away from all that "grown-up rot"- and the one we're supposed to feel sorry about is the one who didn't die.

Peter Pevensie, d. age 22; Edmund Pevensie, 19; Lucy Pevensie, 17; Eustace Scrubb, 16; Jill Poole, 16.

[Midge]

It's Digory, not Digby.

GM, you don't understand. Once they have left this world for "a bigger and brighter" one, they don't think on the terms of this world. It is morbid to feel joy at the thought of someone dying here (ever seen "Arsenic and Old Lace?").

In the "bigger and brighter" place, they will see it as a permanent arrival there instead of a permanent departure from here. And as I pointed out more than a year ago, the only emotion they had was extreme joy; they couldn't feel afraid. I would say that means that they couldn't feel sad or disappointed or any other negative emotions. They could still feel for Susan, but I suspect that it was a continuation of their joy. They felt joy that she didn't die in the train crash, so as to have a second chance to abandon her idolatry and become close to God (or Aslan, as the case may be).

You do bring up an interesting point: Does Lewis expect anyone to feel sorry for the five younger of the Seven who die? I don't think so. It is just assumed that the Narnia-within-the-Narnia is infinitely better than the institutions that they haven't experienced yet, like marriage, a career, a family, etc. I think that we are meant to feel sorry for Susan who is not certain to join them.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by Midge

It's Digory, not Digby.

:blush: And one of my favorites, too.

GM, you don't understand. Once they have left this world for "a bigger and brighter" one, they don't think on the terms of this world. It is morbid to feel joy at the thought of someone dying here (ever seen "Arsenic and Old Lace?").

I understand, I just disagree. But, according to your beliefs, why is it morbid to feel joy at somebody dying? Shouldn't you be happy? Even the loss shouldn't be the sadness of departure- after all you know you'll be seeing them again, in a better place. Really, the feeling should be one of envy- they get to go on holiday early, while you're stuck at work- yet somehow no religion seems to actually view it that way.

In the "bigger and brighter" place, they will see it as a permanent arrival there instead of a permanent departure from here. And as I pointed out more than a year ago, the only emotion they had was extreme joy; they couldn't feel afraid. I would say that means that they couldn't feel sad or disappointed or any other negative emotions. They could still feel for Susan, but I suspect that it was a continuation of their joy. They felt joy that she didn't die in the train crash, so as to have a second chance to abandon her idolatry and become close to God (or Aslan, as the case may be).

And what if she doesn't? Will they feel joy about that, too?

"Remember our sister, Susan?"
"Oh, yes- I'm so glad she went into the Shadows and is lost to us forever- say, why don't we go Further Up and Further In? I'm sure the apples there will be even better."

You do bring up an interesting point: Does Lewis expect anyone to feel sorry for the five younger of the Seven who die? I don't think so. It is just assumed that the Narnia-within-the-Narnia is infinitely better than the institutions that they haven't experienced yet, like marriage, a career, a family, etc. I think that we are meant to feel sorry for Susan who is not certain to join them.

Again, doesn't that mean we should hope that everybody (including ourselves) dies as young as possible- I know we're not supposed to kill ourselves, but wouldn't a train crash be like winning the lottery?


Here's a question- why did Lewis feel he had to kill the Pevensie children's parents as well? After all, as Peter himself says, they had nothing to do with Narnia.

P.S. - Love "Arsenic and Old Lace" - my mother played one of the old ladies in her Little Theater group when I was a kid.

[Earniel]

Hm, I was going to argue about some points about Susan's character, but then decided that I don't like these books enough to engage in a bigger discussion. So I leave this discussion with this: I do feel sorry for Susan, not because she is denied a place in Happy-Land, but because she was left behind to pick up the pieces. She will get to go and identify the corpses of pretty much her entire family. And if the train was going fast enough to kill about everyone in the train station... well, that's going to be rather messy. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. She will never see her brothers marry, she will never see her little sister graduate college, she's never going to have a nice family dinner again. And while accidents happen and one can come to terms with that, this was no accident, this was done to her. Her whole family was taken away from her, brutally, and on purpose. And only because she grew up when she was told to and had an interest in lipstick. And that is just cruel and unfair.

But... I actually also feel sorry for the Pevensies in this 'better' Narnia. Can't feel anything, anything at all but joy, always happyhappy? I was eerily reminded of someone's on drugs all the time, and that makes for creepy reading in what is advertised as books for children. Grief and sorrow are necessary emotions, they're no fun, but they are part of life and can help you grow. Tolkien at least (IMO) understood the necessity of sorrow by, for instance, placing Nienna among the Valar. But the Pevensies don't get a say in anything, they don't get a say in coming to Narnia right this minute, they even don't get a chance to say goodbye to anything or anyone. They end up stripped of not only their entire life and future in our world, but also of a facet of their human emotions and they're not even allowed to feel a bit bad about it.

It may be divine justice Lewis was going for, but I'm missing mercy. I suppose it is a fitting ending for the series, but it was not a happy one from where I'm standing.