Lament for Susan Pevensie

[Valandil]

When I read The Last Battle, I was disappointed about what happened to Susan.

I took her loss of interest in Narnia and newfound interests in other things to mean a sort of 'falling away'. Sad.

[Varnafindë]

Yes, it's very sad. But hopefully it will only be a temporary thing. The shock she gets, may sober her up, so to speak, and she may realize the truth and come back to the faith she once had.

I think even Lewis thought that this was likely to happen.

[Earniel]

I didn't like the treatment Susan got one bit. First she is kicked out for being too old, and when she finally does this growing up thing, she loses out again, with all her family dead in one single accident in the real world. And all that because the girl got interesting in lipstick. It struck me as quite unfair and still does.

[Empress_Flynn]

You know, that bit about Susan always bothered me too, and I am really inclined to agree with Earniel about it... the treatment of her was just unfair!

Not long ago I read an excellent short story by Neil Gaiman called "The Problem of Susan," addressing the issue... feel free to check it out if you want

http://www.impalapublications.com/bl...il-Gaiman.html

(There are a few typos in this text, but you can still understandable... it was the only full text I could find at the moment...)

[Earniel]

I found Gaiman's short story about Susan frankly rather upsetting. The... vivid descriptions of the head were a little too much and it creeped me out for days. I actually stopped reading Gaiman shortly after Fragile Things because I'm too wussy for it.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I didn't like the treatment Susan got one bit. First she is kicked out for being too old, and when she finally does this growing up thing, she loses out again, with all her family dead in one single accident in the real world. And all that because the girl got interesting in lipstick. It struck me as quite unfair and still does.

Susan wasn't really being punished for liking lipstip and these sorts of things.

Lewis is just alluding to those who lose their faith by placing more importance on other things.

Anyone can become interested in other things, and very naturally will, as they move through life. The key thing is, from Lewis' point of view, to not let these other things become more important than your Faith.

[Earniel]

Oh, I know that. But I enjoy the story more without focussing on the religious analogy. I understand (I think) Lewis' intention with Susan's case, I just don't agree with how it was played out.

[Empress_Flynn]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I found Gaiman's short story about Susan frankly rather upsetting. The... vivid descriptions of the head were a little too much and it creeped me out for days. I actually stopped reading Gaiman shortly after Fragile Things because I'm too wussy for it.

Lol... well I think it was meant to be upsetting, so it's okay...

At least it got you to react!

I don't think Gaiman's for everyone, but I desperately adore his writing style and I wish I could write something as good...

I have to agree that I don't like how Lewis handled the problem of Susan, even though I understood what he was getting at... I think he failed to address what might have happened to Susan after the train crash in any satisfactory way... whether she would even want to get back to Narnia after seeing how her family was brought there, and how she was forced to stay behind and deal with their grisly deaths and trying to make a living...

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Empress_Flynn

:
:
I have to agree that I don't like how Lewis handled the problem of Susan, even though I understood what he was getting at... I think he failed to address what might have happened to Susan after the train crash in any satisfactory way... whether she would even want to get back to Narnia after seeing how her family was brought there, and how she was forced to stay behind and deal with their grisly deaths and trying to make a living...

Life can be hard though. We're not promised otherwise. Susan was no longer yearning for Narnia with things as they were. Maybe she will be again, now that she has lost so much where she was.

I don't think she was all alone though. Her parents are still living, are they not?

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Empress_Flynn

I think he failed to address what might have happened to Susan after the train crash in any satisfactory way...

In any satisfactory way?
He doesn't even try. There's no mention at all of what happens to her after the train crash. Not in the books, although he comments on it in one of his letters.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I don't think she was all alone though. Her parents are still living, are they not?

No - they mention in the book that while they were on the train, they commented on what a strange coincidence it was that their parents would be on a train and probably be at the same station at the same time. So their parents were killed in the same train crash.

In Narnia within Narnia, the children can see the England within England over at another ridge - all ridges coming in towards Aslan's country. They can actually see their parents over there, and they are wawing at each other, knowing that they will meet up 'further up and further in'.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Why would she know they were in Narnia? Why would Narnia come into it, at all?

Susan was a materialist. Even if she "believed" in Narnia, she didn't know about the "after rapture" Narnia displayed in the last book. They'd been told they couldn't come back, and, as far as she knew, they didn't.

The somewhat precious "pre-lapsarian" view of childhood in the story is kind of an artifact of it's time. To be really consistant, there's no way Eustace could have been brought through to Narnia, ever. I even have my doubts about Digory. Lewis postulated a sort of 'period of innocence' that gave children free-access, but precluded them from participating as adults, presumably so they could be tested and serve as good examples in their 'own' world. That's his solution to the problem of pain, more or less.

But it's not tidy or elegant, imo.

I think he killed the parents understanding that child readers would NOT be happy about going to Narnia if their parents weren't going. Too bad for Susan.

[Empress_Flynn]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Why would she know they were in Narnia? Why would Narnia come into it, at all?

Susan was a materialist. Even if she "believed" in Narnia, she didn't know about the "after rapture" Narnia displayed in the last book. They'd been told they couldn't come back, and, as far as she knew, they didn't.

The somewhat precious "pre-lapsarian" view of childhood in the story is kind of an artifact of it's time. To be really consistant, there's no way Eustace could have been brought through to Narnia, ever. I even have my doubts about Digory. Lewis postulated a sort of 'period of innocence' that gave children free-access, but precluded them from participating as adults, presumably so they could be tested and serve as good examples in their 'own' world. That's his solution to the problem of pain, more or less.

But it's not tidy or elegant, imo.

I think he killed the parents understanding that child readers would NOT be happy about going to Narnia if their parents weren't going. Too bad for Susan.

That's a good point... if Aslan tells them they're too old, they can never come back to Narnia... why wouldn't she start focusing on other things? She might even subconsciously try to forget that Narnia was ever real in the first place and treat it as just one of those childhood "games" to minimize her sadness over not being able to go back...

Not saying that for sure... just saying it's possible...

And then her entire family gets killed and she has to worry about everything else in life, getting by, and her own isolation from everyone she ever loved... of course she wouldn't be focusing on Narnia at that point!

It seems like a rather clumsy plot point when you think about it...

[Tessar]

Believe it or not, I rather like what happened to Susan... not because it makes me happy that it happened... I think my desire would be for her to share the same fate as the others, BUT the 'reader' in me loves that there's a tinge of bitter-sweetness to the story. A sense of imperfection. I like that not -every- single loose thread gets tied off into a neat, happy little bow.

[Midge]

Well, I don't necessarily know that it wasn't all not Susan's fault. Even in Prince Caspian, she was showing signs of losing faith quickly. She was always the doubting Thomas, the devil's advocate in most everything they did up until they met Aslan. Even in LWW, she was the one who wanted to go home after finding out the danger.

She was always my least favorite character. Sort of the adult voice of reason in what seems to be a place of entire childish imagination type of thing.

The thing about Susan doing this "growing up thing", as Earn says, is that she did it differently than the others. After Peter, Edmund and Lucy were told they weren't to return, they didn't quit believing Narnia existed. Digory and Polly were like, 60 or 70 years old and they still knew quite well that Narnia was true and not a figment of their imagination. What about Susan was different? Why did she forget?

[cee2lee2]

I have always mourned for Susan her loss of Narnia, probably because I'm more of a Susan than a Lucy in terms of turning away from danger or being the doubting Thomas. I can understand that she represents a "falling away from the faith," but it does seem unfair. I haven't read the books in some time, but I can't recall that her family seem to miss her at all. Susan's situation makes me very sad.

[Midge]

Well, that's the thing, isn't it?

"Have you noticed one can't feel afraid, even if one wants to?"
"By Jove, neither one can."

Very likely, they were so overfilled with joy that they couldn't feel anything else. Including sadness for their sister, though when they mention her earlier, it is with regret. They love her, but when they are dead and filled with new life, she is no longer a priority because there's really nothing they can do but wait for her.

[cee2lee2]

Originally Posted by Midge

Well, that's the thing, isn't it?

"Have you noticed one can't feel afraid, even if one wants to?"
"By Jove, neither one can."

Very likely, they were so overfilled with joy that they couldn't feel anything else. Including sadness for their sister, though when they mention her earlier, it is with regret. They love her, but when they are dead and filled with new life, she is no longer a priority because there's really nothing they can do but wait for her.

You're right. I'm just sad because no matter how long they wait, I think Susan isn't going to make it in the end.

[Midge]

I guess... It talks about the difference between Tash and Aslan in the Last Battle. I think I'll make a thread to discuss that. But if Aslan has different names in Narnia and Earth, then Tash probably does too. Do you think that possibly Susan has become a follower of Tash (disguised as the idol Susan apparently made out of her image)?

I suppose that means that Susan won't come to Aslan's country...

[inked]

When we last see her Susan is caught in the struggle between being modern/postmodern versus premodern. It is sad that a lot of commentators think and have written that Susan doesn’t get into to Narnia because of “growing up” and attribute it to the onset of sexual interest. I think that Lewis’ is strongly commenting on modern society which focuses on the ephemeral (symbolized by lipstick, high heels, etc - and what is more ephemeral than fashion?) and Susan’s limiting herself to a merely modern sensibility and reducing the premodern worldview to games and fairy tales and “mere” stories. Susan is like Dante seen “caught in a dark wood”. Only her wood/world has reduced to mere leaves on trees and she has lost the idea of the forest, the far greater reality. Having had a Narnian sensibility, we may hope that she awakens and finds her way back to Aslan’s Mountain from which all worlds are.

[Butterbeer]

Aye - who says she ultimately will not find Aslan's Country?

She has free choice in the rest of her Life to take stock and become any manner of Person - or do we think Aslan only gives one chance??

As i recall Aslan said those that worshipped Tash truly and Faithfully ... worshipped him but merely by another name and would be treated as if they worshipped him.

I also to a degree agree with Tessar - it is bitter sweet and none the worse for it - as it almost brings the concept a full circle from birth of the world to end (of the Physical world so to speak) - and the Choices and parables CS Lewis infused the whole Series with throughout, are brought to their conclusion, and summed up.

But i do not see the judgement or choice of Susan is in any way final...

Best BB