Sidious or Mace

[orithil]

spoilors

When Darth sidious and mace were fighting in episode three did anyone notice that sidious started to lose the fight just as anakin was arriving My guess is that sidious sensed anakin comin and began to lose the fight Purposely.Did you notice that in the fight sidious always had his light sabre close to mace's heart after each exchange.

[Curubethion]

Interesting idea...and it makes sense. Although I don't know if Sidious would be willing to risk his life on the probable choice of Anakin.

[hectorberlioz]

Well, you're on the right track Orithil...because I'm thinking that little clash with Obi-Wan had Anakin rearing for a fight...and in this case he was going to help Mace, but...you all know...

[orithil]

Thank you.

[Serenoli]

I also got the impression that he was losing intentionally... especially as he kept pleading with Anakin to save him. To me, it seemed obvious that he was capable of defeating Mace himself, (see how quickly he recovers when Anakin helps him a bit- it smacks of play-acting) but did a bit of I'm-such-a-weak-defenseless-old-man-and-Jedi-are-nasty-cruel-creatures-trying-to-kill-me etc. so Anakin would get over the last of hid doubts.

[XRogue]

Yah, I agree. He was just using the moment to give Ani a push over the edge, knowing Ani was impulsive and tended to act first and think later.

After all, if Palp could kill 3 Jedi masters in a space of about 45 seconds, I'm sure he could have finished Mace too. And Palpy shoved Mace out the window mighty fast for a helpless old man, I must say. Definitely faking for the audience.

[The Telcontarion]

Very interesting theory. One problem that comes to mind though is the transformation of palpatines face...seemingly from strain. I have seen obi-wan use the same technique, using his lightsaber to deflect force lightning. After the lightning was deflected Mace visibly relaxed and was closing in for the kill. Now, he may not be yoda, but he most certainly knew what he was doing and what position he was now in.

I believe, for this theory to work, you would have to believe that the emporer's transformation was part of the ruse and not a result of him straining...I do not believe that. Palpatine was about to die, he most certainly would not allow himself to be intentionally placed in such a position, merely to gain a new, though powerful apprentice.

[orithil]

I understand what your saying but as you outlined mace is know yoda so if palp was about even with yoda in lightsabre dueling then he could of most certinly beaten mace could he not

[The Telcontarion]

I think Mace is a powerful jedi, though not as naturally talented as yoda, he is clearly the second strongest on the council.

My point is this, Yoda was old, and frankly I believe that is the only reason why Yoda lost that fight. From the beginning he had the upper hand, even palpatine tried to leave the room at first. So I think the falling and the collisions and the emporer losing his mind and just cutting lose, high on his mega maniacal wet dream fantasy coming true, yoda's body just could not continue. So yes, Mace I think was powerful enough to take on palpatine and palpatine was not an equal to yoda, but that yoda was just too old.

[XRogue]

Ah, but suppose Palps didn't take Mace's Vaapad fighting style into account? He knew Mace would be able to deflect the lightning-other Jedi Masters can do it, even Ob1 deflected Dooku's lightning briefly-but Vaapad is like a feedback loop, perhaps the lightning was not DEflected from Mace, but REflected back onto Palpatine?

I don't seem him letting himself get deformed on purpose either, but suppose he couldn't help it? Palpy certainly used it to get sympathy later...more grist for the mill.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by XRogue

Ah, but suppose Palps didn't take Mace's Vaapad fighting style into account? He knew Mace would be able to deflect the lightning-other Jedi Masters can do it, even Ob1 deflected Dooku's lightning briefly-but Vaapad is like a feedback loop, perhaps the lightning was not DEflected from Mace, but REflected back onto Palpatine?

I don't seem him letting himself get deformed on purpose either, but suppose he couldn't help it? Palpy certainly used it to get sympathy later...more grist for the mill.

I saw know evidence of it being a feed back loop, and now that's too much "supposing" for me. I guess if we go on like this we would never really know, so I don't know.

[hectorberlioz]

I have to agree with Tel; I don't think Palpatine would have let himself be disfigured...

...which brings up another question...aren't Sith or Jedi supposed to be powerful enough to do cosmetic surgery and face-lifts?

[tolkienfan]

Would that even help? He'd need a lot more than a face-lift. I thought from my first viewing that he was losing on purpose to get Anakin over to the dark side. But now after reading this thread I'm not sure. It does seem unlikely he would let himself be disfigured, but to me it seemed he was going over the top with the whining. I'll have to watch it again. I did not notice him keeping his light-sabre close to Mace's heart, I'll watch for that.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

He could definitely take on Mace. Did you SEE how he plowed through those other Jedi??? And weren't they Masters, too?

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

He could definitely take on Mace. Did you SEE how he plowed through those other Jedi??? And weren't they Masters, too?

That's the thing, I don't believe they where masters.

[orithil]

I'm pretty sure kit fisto was on the council and he was beaten very easily

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

That's the thing, I don't believe they where masters.

“Saesee Tiin ... was one of a group of Jedi Masters gathered together by Mace Windu to arrest Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.” Kit Fisto was a “Jedi Master of renown.” Agen Kolar was one of “a number of legendary Masters.” See also this reference to Kolar’s being a Jedi master.

That, at least, is what George Lucas says.

The Sith were tough opponents.

From the entry on Palpatine on the Star Wars website,

Mace Windu ... arranged a group of Jedi Masters to arrest the Chancellor. Palpatine did not go quietly.

In the inner recesses of the Chancellor's private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side of the Force flow through him. It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back.

[Serenoli]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I believe, for this theory to work, you would have to believe that the emporer's transformation was part of the ruse and not a result of him straining...I do not believe that. Palpatine was about to die, he most certainly would not allow himself to be intentionally placed in such a position, merely to gain a new, though powerful apprentice.

When I watched the movie, I had a sort of vague idea that he sort-of, I don't know, metamorphed his face. I thought he always did look that ugly and disfigured, and he used his Force to give him a nice look most of the times, but his face was revealed during battle. I didnt really think it out when I was watching, and it does sound a bit too... vague. I guess I got the idea from the fact that most Sith, (at least in the games, and in the first Trilogy) look disfigured, as if the Dark side showed on their face.

But, I do have a better explanation. I don't think Sidious was dying, but certainly having to resist Mace while keeping his full powers in restrain, might have caused the damage to his face. Very likely, he didnt even anticipate any harm to himself, but he kept up the act as long as necesarry to force Anakin to give in.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

That's the thing, I don't believe they where masters.

Obi-Wan: Darn it, it's so hard to get a Masters...

Qui-Gon: Patience, my young apprentice...

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Serenoli

When I watched the movie, I had a sort of vague idea that he sort-of, I don't know, metamorphed his face. I thought he always did look that ugly and disfigured, and he used his Force to give him a nice look most of the times, but his face was revealed during battle. I didnt really think it out when I was watching, and it does sound a bit too... vague. I guess I got the idea from the fact that most Sith, (at least in the games, and in the first Trilogy) look disfigured, as if the Dark side showed on their face.

But, I do have a better explanation. I don't think Sidious was dying, but certainly having to resist Mace while keeping his full powers in restrain, might have caused the damage to his face. Very likely, he didnt even anticipate any harm to himself, but he kept up the act as long as necesarry to force Anakin to give in.

Now that is a very interesting idea! Very well founded, IMO...