When Star Wars Took a Nose-Dive

[Valandil]

Just been thinking about this lately.

I think one epic moment changed the Star Wars franchise... for the worse. It was at the end of the second movie made, now Episode 5, "The Empire Strikes Back" - when Darth Vader revealed to Luke that he was his father.

First thing that did was to bring into question the integrity of the "good guys" of the story. This point had been danced around - really, flat-out lied about. By the good guys. The Jedi Knights. The servants of the good side of the force. The defenders of Truth. BTW - I thought at the time that it also produced a lot of plot-holes. And for the next three years, I held that Darth had simply lied to Luke. Man - was I let down.

Second though - and this is what I've just thought of, and maybe it was bigger. It reduced the scale of Star Wars. It went from being galactic - to being about a family. Now - there's no credibility of anybody else in the galaxy being strong with the Force - unless they're from the family line. I mean - it was so ridiculous that Leia was Luke's sister. She had a family situation of her own. It's hard for me to swallow that this was in the concept when the first Star Wars movie came out in 1977. And I thought 'what next... Chewbacca is their great uncle?'

And now - as more movies are produced, they just can't avoid this. It's sort of ridiculous, when you think about it. They should not have gone that way - way back then.

[Insidious Rex]

Oh come on dont be so harsh. I like that it was a kind of family soap opera. The whole thing is set up as a tale about destiny and connectivity and it takes place over the course of generations. Obi trains the father. The father turns bad and ushers in darkness. The son finds Obi who trains him and he defeats the father AND brings him back to the light side. Its a great story of redemption and rebirth and the circular nature of things. And its symbolic of the dark and light in all of us. Only circumstances dictate which way we may turn...

As for Leia, Im not sure what was the point of disclosing she is Lukes sister other than it eliminates the possibility of her and Luke getting together obviously which leaves the door open for Han. Otherwise, she never apparently became a Jedi or uses the force in any way so its a bit of a waste. I guess it adds to the circularity of the story and it keeps the option open that if Luke failed "there is another..."

Didnt have a problem with you know who being you know whos kid (thats my best non spoiler comment...) in the most recent movie. I wasnt looking for a brand new story. I wanted a direct connection. And I like how they included the originals in the way they did. This new movie is really Hans movie if you think about it. Now the question is who is Rey? Theres only so many possibilities (daughter of X, daughter of Y, grand daughter of Z, clone? reincarnation??) and honestly I think her being just some new person with no connection to anyone doesnt work. There needs to be some symmetry with her.

[Valandil]

I guess not all force-sensitives (Leia) ought to become Jedis. Some have to have offspring and pass on the midichlorians, or whatever.

Maybe Rey is another "virgin birth" of the Force? Or... a GREAT-grand-daughter of Z? Or Grand Moff Tarkin's great-niece!

[Earniel]

For me, being part of the next Star Wars generation, I did not think that Vader's revelation was the weakest story-point of the epic. Of course it was different for me since the original trilogy was finished by the time I was old enough to see it and by then set in stone.

But as IR points out, Vader being Luke's dad brings out the themes of redemption and existance of the grey area between good and evil. For me that only elevated the story from an ordinary (but fun) sci-fi movie to something more complex.

No, for me the weakest point beyond a doubt is the second trilogy, with the focus on the prophecy concerning Anakin as bringing balance to the Force (including a virgin birth (!) and really really bad romance) undid a lot of scope of the universe. It brings predetermined, unescapable destiny into a universe that previously made a pivotal scene out of the idea that destinies were not fixed, that one could change their destiny and not be forever good or bad. Young Anakin didn't stand a chance. Talk about a narrow focus.

It was IMO the second trilogy that linked destined strenght in the Force to lineage (specifically the Skywalker line) in a way the previous trilogy had not. While the first trilogy showed sensitivity to the Force could be inherited it also showed it could be stronger in some children than in others. One had the idea that if Vader had had more offspring, it was feasible some might be born without Force sensitivity at all. That idea that Force sensitivity can vary and is not limited to lineage is almost completely missing from the second trilogy. Take for instance the way kid-Anakin could harness the Force without the barest of training. At least in the original trilogy Luke needed training from two jedi masters before he could do anything useful with it.

And unlike the original trilogy, the second goes on to include new, needlessly added plot holes, like when the new trilogy made sure Leia never knew her mother when in the original trilogy Leia does remember her.

I haven't seen the new movie yet bit I've been hearing a lot of good things about it and can't help being cheated. My nephews' generation gets one good movie and the prospect of more, my parents' generation had the original trilogy and me? I had really poorly written prequels and the needless 'updating' of the originals in the way you can't even see the original ones anymore as they were released. How am I not cheated?!

[Midge]

Hey, Val, how about this?

And Earn, apparently Machete Order is the new, coolest way to watch the series!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

And unlike the original trilogy, the second goes on to include new, needlessly added plot holes, like when the new trilogy made sure Leia never knew her mother when in the original trilogy Leia does remember her.

Or even better, it created a situation where Darth Vader apparently has no recollection of C3PO who he created as a child OR R2D2 who was his favorite wing man droid when he was a young jedi. why would he do that?! Ive never understood...

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Midge

And Earn, apparently Machete Order is the new, coolest way to watch the series!

Huh, they put a tremendous amount of thought in that. There is something to say for that, had I owned the second trilogy.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Or even better, it created a situation where Darth Vader apparently has no recollection of C3PO who he created as a child OR R2D2 who was his favorite wing man droid when he was a young jedi. why would he do that?! Ive never understood...

Ah, I had even forgotten that one, that's even more damning as continuity error. One would think that people at the helm of one of the most succesful franchises ever would actually put some effort in consistancy. Just imagine the money they would have made had the second trilogy actually have been good.

[Mari]

Some of the books written later were actually very good. They explore lots of things only touched upon in the films.
Then again: some books were pretty awful.

[Earniel]

True, I loved The Heir to the Empire trilogy and the New Jedi Academy books, but I would have been happy if books like The Courtship of Princess Leia had never been written.

But at least that I can't pin on Lucas as such.

Cheers,

I just discovered this space and just exploring what entmoot.tolkientrail.com is about!

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Midge

[A]pparently Machete Order is the new, coolest way to watch the series!

“Machete Order”. Is that a rival to the First Order?

This “Machete Order” is the order in which I watch Star Wars. Unlike the author of the webpage, I usually watch Phantom Menace, too, although I agree with her that the midichlorian and virgin birth ideas are useless distractions: If you’re gonna invoke magic, just invoke magic. And I really like Rogue One: I like the way it leads into the original Star Wars film from 1977, so I’d add it before watching Return of the Jedi in the very end. (I don’t like the title New Hope).

Originally Posted by Eärniel

[F]or me the weakest point beyond a doubt is the second trilogy, with the focus on the prophecy concerning Anakin as bringing balance to the Force (including a virgin birth (!) and really really bad romance)… And unlike the original trilogy, the second goes on to include new, needlessly added plot holes, like when the new trilogy made sure Leia never knew her mother when in the original trilogy Leia does remember her.

My point exactly. As for the romance, Anakin was just really awkward around girls, at least girls that interested him romantically. He’s like a college freshman in love with a senior who’s a beautiful genius and leader on campus.

Leia’s remembering her mother Padme is a plot hole, more like a plot contradiction. It would have been more satisfying had Padme escaped for a while to Alderaan and subsequently died while Leia was still very young.

For plot holes, however, Vader, one of the most Force-sensitive people in the unnamed Galaxy far, far away doesn’t recognize his daughter, or even that the girl is Force-sensitive. I mean, Luke was at least at more than arm’s length - in another space ship while fighting a pitched battle - while Leia was right in front of him, literally at arm’s length, while she was interrogated by a mind probe, and right up against him when Grand Moff Tarkin ordered Alderaan destroyed. (I guess that makes Darth Vader every teenage girl’s version of Death Father: first the interrogation of where have you been, who have you seen, what did you do, and then, I’m blowing up your home.)

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I did not think that Vader's revelation was the weakest story-point of the epic. Of course it was different for me since the original trilogy was finished by the time I was old enough to see it and by then set in stone.

I think Vader’s “I am your father” revelation in Empire Strikes Back is considered one of the great moments in film story-telling. It only works if you use the “Machete Order” instead of the “First Order”. Then again, maybe “Machete Order” is the “First Order”, because “Machete Order” is the order in which audiences actually first saw the films, except that Return of the Jedi comes in the middle, when by all accounts it should come last.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

…Take for instance the way kid-Anakin could harness the Force without the barest of training.

Anakin piloted a pod racer. He didn’t grab lightsabers and beat experienced Jedi or raise a mountain of rocks with little preparation. Rey, however … ah, heck, Rey must have been trained by her Aunt Mary Sue before she met Luke. Maybe the plot twist in the last movie of the third trilogy is that Rey is Mary Sue.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Or even better, it created a situation where Darth Vader apparently has no recollection of C3PO who he created as a child OR R2D2 who was his favorite wing man droid when he was a young jedi. why would he do that?! Ive never understood...

There was a Star Wars comic on that, at least on C3PO and Vader. Maybe all protocol droids look alike. Obi-wan denied “ever owning a droid before,” which might be technically true, but surely he realized what or “who” R2D2 was.

You know, Insidious Rex, Jedi and Sith alike seem to have a pretty loose concept of “truth”. Sith just outright lie, like Sauron, while Jedi are more creative in bending the truth; neither of them is “honest” in the conventional, old-fashioned, traditional (or strictly legal) sense of the word.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I think one epic moment changed the Star Wars franchise... for the worse. It was at the end of the second movie made, now Episode 5, "The Empire Strikes Back" - when Darth Vader revealed to Luke that he was his father. … It reduced the scale of Star Wars. It went from being galactic - to being about a family. … Now - there's no credibility of anybody else in the galaxy being strong with the Force - unless they're from the family line. I mean - it was so ridiculous that Leia was Luke's sister. She had a family situation of her own. It's hard for me to swallow that this was in the concept when the first Star Wars movie came out in 1977. And I thought 'what next... Chewbacca is their great uncle?'

“I am you father” is one of the great plot twists in movies. It does reduce the story to a tale about a family, although it’s an awfully dysfunctional family! Tolstoy begins Anna Karenina with, “All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” I’ve heard that paraphrased, All happy families are alike; the rest are the interesting ones.

Lucas is writing his version of the Hero Journey he learned from reading mythologist Joseph Campbell’s Hero with a Thousand Faces. Campbell argued that all hero stories are essentially identical. (Tolkien argued they are similar, not identical, and hated the fairy tale/myth classifications that arose in the twentieth century that devolved Grimm’s fairy tales into neat lettered-and-numbered classifications.) It an excellent book, and Campbell was very proud of Lucas’ endorsement of his work. I think he called Lucas his best student, though I understand they never met until after the first Star Wars trilogy was completed.

Originally Posted by Valandil

First thing that did was to bring into question the integrity of the "good guys" of the story. This point had been danced around - really, flat-out lied about. By the good guys. The Jedi Knights. The servants of the good side of the force. The defenders of Truth. … [F]or the next three years, I held that Darth had simply lied to Luke. Man - was I let down.

This is exactly the point in my recent rant, A thought on the Jedi…. I wish I’d read this thread thoroughly before starting a new thread, but yes: the Jedi are neither honest nor unselfish. In the story, their hypocrisy more than anything else opened the door for Anakin to turn against them.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

While the Jedi are the Good Guys in Star Wars, they’re not very honest. They are, as an organization, downright dishonest and selfish. They also planned [and attempted to execute] a coup, not first and foremost to preserve the Republic, but to save their own butts; if the Republic happened to survive, more or less, that was a plus, too. And to tell you truth, I’m very happy Jedi are not real…

If it makes you feel any better, Valandil, I saw Empire Strikes Back the first day it played, second show. I was in college, and my father went with me. We watched stunned people file out of the theater ahead of us: no one said anything about the plot twist, though they said was it really good; and I later resisted telling my roommates. I thought Vader was lying; my dad, in his wisdom and experience with movies (particularly the kinds of Saturday morning cinema cliff-hangers that Lucas used as a pattern for his films) was not so certain. James Earl Jones, who provided Darth Vader’s voice, believed Darth Vader was lying. (Notice that Jones quotes then line as, “Luke, I am your father.” I believe that was the line in the original release, replaced by “No, I am your father,” in subsequent releases. I believe Han shot first, too.) It was such a shock that Lucas was advised by child psychologists that children in particular needed some “honest broker” character to confirm it, so in Return of the Jedi, they gave the line, “Your father he is,” to Yoda.

Here’s a YouTube compilation of kids seeing Empire Strikes Back for the first time.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Leia’s remembering her mother Padme is a plot hole, more like a plot contradiction. It would have been more satisfying had Padme escaped for a while to Alderaan and subsequently died while Leia was still very young.

I was so very much let down by this. Padmé was a strong character. She had been a queen at twelve! Grew up to be a senator, the representative of her nation is the greatest political gathering of the universe! She managed to keep her liaison through all that a secret without wearing her down. And she loses the will to live because her teenage lover goes off the rails and even her two newborns don't even matter at that stage?! Gaah. So stupidly contrived drama.

For plot holes, however, Vader, one of the most Force-sensitive people in the unnamed Galaxy far, far away doesn’t recognize his daughter, or even that the girl is Force-sensitive. I mean, Luke was at least at more than arm’s length - in another space ship while fighting a pitched battle - while Leia was right in front of him, literally at arm’s length, while she was interrogated by a mind probe, and right up against him when Grand Moff Tarkin ordered Alderaan destroyed.

There's no basis in the movies to think that the Force allows one to recognize their bloodrelatives as far as I know. That Leia and Luke find out they're brother and sister I've always connected to the bond twins are often said to have, not the Force. Vader only realised Leia was his too after Luke inadvertedly revealed it to him.

Leia doesn't seem to have (or did not have at least at this point) any obvious Force sensitivity. The only one Vader at that point can sense is a true Jedi Master, Obi-Wan Kenobi. I wonder if he even remotely suspected Luke beyond the very obvious fact that his last name was Skywalker. By the way, reall smart thinking on that part, second trilogy Obi-Wan. "Sure, I'll hide this kid. I'll bring him to his father's old home, to his nearest blood-relatives which Vader knows personally exist, and let him bear his father's name. Darth Vader or the emperor will never know!"

As far as Vader knew his kid had died with Padmé and it's likely he never gave it much of a thought in the years after that. He probably never even suspected there had been two all along. (Which brings me to another of those annoying plotholes. Like they have all that advanced tech to play with but a little advanced pregancy and maternity care is not one of them? Seriously. Anakin angsting over Padmé's supposed death at childbirth feels all the more contrived when you consider the tech they should have at their disposal to prevent such things.)

(I guess that makes Darth Vader every teenage girl’s version of Death Father: first the interrogation of where have you been, who have you seen, what did you do, and then, I’m blowing up your home.)

Da-aaad!

Anakin piloted a pod racer. He didn’t grab lightsabers and beat experienced Jedi or raise a mountain of rocks with little preparation. Rey, however … ah, heck, Rey must have been trained by her Aunt Mary Sue before she met Luke. Maybe the plot twist in the last movie of the third trilogy is that Rey is Mary Sue.

Yes, maybe. I'm not convinced. Anaklin is still is a lot younger than all the others who show Force Sensitivity and Luke and Rey only begin to show such signs as adults, after they encounter light sabers, jedis and the like.

And in the second trilogy much is made of the fact that Anakin is not only so young to pod-race but that no other human can even survive in the pod races. Clearly implicating that the only reason Anakin can, is through the Force.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

It reduced the scale of Star Wars.

I think you've put your finger on what has bugged me about the whole series all along, ever since Empire Strikes Back.

We started with a huge canvas of the imagination, we were then shoehorned into Dallas.