Tolkien's Descriptions...?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Is it just me or did Proffesor Tolkien have a huge problem with descriptions of characters? I don't mean their looks or their actions, I'm talking about their titles. If im not mistaken he gives several characters similar, if not the same, titles! Titles like the tallest ever seen in ME, Greatest in ability, most beautiful. I was just reading The story of Túrin Turambar and his elvan companion Beleg Strongbow is considered greatest in ability of Missle-Earth. Im sure that he gave others the same titles, Aragorn, Legolas, Fëanor. I can't remember precise examples but as I read through the books again I will make notes on all the similar/same titles I see and continue posting them here. Yet what do you all think? Surely you must have noteced the same thing!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Beleg wasn't considered the greatest of Middle-Earth. just of Doriath. Feanor was considered the greatest craftsman, Legolas the greatest archer and Aragorn the greatest Hunter.

[Valandil]

Halbarad, I think there are some qualifiers on many of those. Also... some might be said BY someone else who might not have complete knowledge of EVERYONE else who has ever lived.

It's really hard to talk about until you can post some 'competing' claims about different characters though...

[Nurvingiel]

There are a few things like the Two Legolas' debate. This suggests slight ambiguity around whether or not the Legolas mentioned in the Silmarillion (IIRC) is the same as the Fellowship member.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

There are a few things like the Two Legolas' debate.

The two Legolas debate is absurd because people have no business treating The Book of Lost Tales with The Lord of the Rings as if they were both part of the same mythology (they are not) AND because Tolkien DID reuse Elvish names (within mythologies as well as across multiple mythologies).

This suggests slight ambiguity around whether or not the Legolas mentioned in the Silmarillion (IIRC) is the same as the Fellowship member.

There is no Legolas in The Silmarillion, and the Legolas in The Book of Lost Tales is absolutely, without a doubt, indiputably NOT the Legolas of The Lord of the Rings.

As for the multiple qualifiers Tolkien uses, tallest, greatest, mightiest, etc., he is drawing upon ancient epic traditions in which heroes, lords, and villains were described with such qualities. All the various claims are surely a little confusing for anyone. Tolkien's intent, however, is not to confuse the reader or require the reader to remember all the "...est of" qualifiers, but rather is to provide an in-passing context for the character's stature in the legends.

It's one of those good/bad things that both helps and hinders.

[brownjenkins]

the golden perch does have the undisputed best beer in eastfarthing

[Sister Golden Hair]

I can remember Tolkien describing Finrod as: "wisest of the Exiled Noldor," "fairest of all the Princes of the Elves," " most beloved of the house of Finwe," Youngest of the great lords of the Noldor." He calls Celeborn: "the wise." I'm not sure what the set perimeters are on that though.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

the golden perch does have the undisputed best beer in eastfarthing

I hear there's an opening for a 'Shirriff'...

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

He calls Celeborn: "the wise." I'm not sure what the set perimeters are on that though.

Yeah, but he has Galadriel say it, I am sure with a bit of wifely sarcasm. Especially since he had just committed the kind of faux pas that in my idea of her, she would dislike.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Yeah, but he has Galadriel say it, I am sure with a bit of wifely sarcasm. Especially since he had just committed the kind of faux pas that in my idea of her, she would dislike.

I know she's your love of the books, but I question her taste in husbands.

[Valandil]

OTOH... perhaps the chief evidence of his wisdom lay in the fact that he landed her!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Valandil

OTOH... perhaps the chief evidence of his wisdom lay in the fact that he landed her!

Yeah, well, that doesn't say much for her wisdom now does it?

Are we allowed to flame characters?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Are we allowed to flame characters?

Well... the ban I just imposed on you started and ended somewhere in the Second Age. So in your case, you're alright now.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I know she's your love of the books, but I question her taste in husbands.

In the immortal words of Dixieberry, "Celeborn: inferiority complex? What inferiority complex?"

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Yeah, but he has Galadriel say it, I am sure with a bit of wifely sarcasm. Especially since he had just committed the kind of faux pas that in my idea of her, she would dislike.

There is no sarcasm in Galadriel's remarks about her husband, who does indeed come across as very wise in the book.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

I can remember Tolkien describing Finrod as: "wisest of the Exiled Noldor," "fairest of all the Princes of the Elves," " most beloved of the house of Finwe," Youngest of the great lords of the Noldor." He calls Celeborn: "the wise."

Damning Celeborn with faint praise, isn't he?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

There is no sarcasm in Galadriel's remarks about her husband, who does indeed come across as very wise in the book.

Then what was it?
An attempt to make not so bright husband of hers look wiser in the eyes of newcomers , or a very subtle message pointing who is the boss in this house?
Just a minute ago Celeborn made a big blunder by lashing out on Gimli.
Galadriel tactically correcting his mistake, but, as a smart wife, she makes it in the way, which will be less offencive to her husband ego:she praises him, saying that the Fellowship will get a good advise, because: For the Lord of the Galadrim is accounted the wisest of the elves of Middle-earth
This is an open flattery, because, as we know "the Wisest on the ME" was not even included in the Council of the Wise.
He had dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dvelt with him years uncounted... and since that moment comes a narcissistic self-credentials :I it was who first summoned the White Council, and if MY design had not gone amiss ...I...I..I...never WE. Celeborn was pushed to the marginal role of saying "Hello" and "Good bye".
No wonder that he did not want to follow her to Valinor and opted to stay behind.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Then what was it?

Celeborn Unplugged
Every now and then, someone asks me to speak up for Celeborn. He is, perhaps, the most maligned and misunderstood of Tolkien's characters. Many people consider the silver-haired Lord of Lorien to be oafish or even foolish. Why? Basically because of one sentence uttered by Galadriel.
And now the sabers of rationalization begin to rattle in their sheathes. "Oh, but he doesn't actually do anything in the book!" his detractors say. Like, Galadriel gets off her royal duff and does something? Sorry. That Warg won't howl. Neither character accomplishes much in the story. They both accomplish a great deal in the background: Galadriel helps Gandalf and Celeborn helps overthrow Dol Guldur's forces. Together, they lead the Elves of Lorien.

The chief complaint people seem to raise against Galadriel is to ask what she is doing with such a loser like Celeborn. Frankly, in my book, anyone who can marry a Galadriel is a winner, but that's just my opinion. Call it an interpretation of the text. Say I'm reading something into the text which isn't there. It's not like no one else has ever done that.

The real problem with Celeborn is that Tolkien never made up his mind about the guy. For example, Tolkien called him "Celeborn the Wise". And people have asked "Why"? Robert Foster's only comment on the subject in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth is to say that Celeborn does not seem especially bright in The Lord of the Rings. Well, who does? Is someone going to argue that Samwise Gamgee (whose first name means "half-wit") is a paragon of intellectual development? Or how about Gimli, Dwarf-philosopher that he is, extolling the virtues of stone?

The smartest character in the Fellowship, Gandalf, can't even figure out that Saruman has betrayed him. When was the last time Celeborn was captured by agents of the Enemy? Okay, maybe that's not fair to Gandalf. After all, someone has to be captured, and he is a convenient prisoner-type. He's all shifty-eyed and secretive -- it's a wonder Saruman didn't lock him up a thousand years earlier.

Of course, Tolkien's definition of "Wise" seems to differ from the definitions most people use today. Tolkien didn't mean "Celeborn the Wise-guy". When the Fellowship shows up in Lorien, they aren't blind-folded, gagged, and hog-tied, thrown into the trunk of a Lincoln Town Car, driven around for three hours, and then forced to confront the surly Elf-lord in a darkened warehouse. "If youse guys think you're gonna git some help from us, youse got another ting commin' to ya! Oh, crud. Here comes da wife. Everyone pick up a harp and act ELF-like!"

Nor did Tolkien mean "Celeborn the Wise-cracker". "Hey, Gimli! How many Dwarves does it take to change a light-bulb?"

But when people speak of "The Wise", they often leave me with the impression that they feel "The Wise" were the smartest Elves around. Yet what is the justification for that belief? Feanor was the smartest Noldo in his day, and look where his brains got him. Does possessing intelligence confer some sort of wisdom? Absolutely not. In fact, intelligent people often make the most foolish or stupid mistakes. History is addled with the errors of the brilliant.

Wisdom is a combination of knowledge, experience, and intuition. And Tolkien's Elves all possess knowledge, experience, and intuition. Even Legolas, who seems to be a bit young for an Elf (probably being no more than a few hundred years old), possesses knowledge, experience, and intuition. He is wise beyond the years of any mortal being, certainly. But is he one of the Elven-wise? Apparently not. After all. He signs up to go on the Quest of Mount Doom and ends up meeting his doom by the sea. Good-bye, Middle-earth. Hello, forced retirement in Aman.

Some people seem to feel that good deductive reasoning skills are an aspect of wisdom. After all, a wise person would pick up on all the clues and figure out that Moriarty is really the bad guy. But Celeborn is no Sherlock Holmes, my dear Watson. Nor should he be. After all, Celeborn understands who his enemy is. He isn't riddled with grave doubts and temptations like his wife. He has a pretty solid personality in that respect.

Celeborn's credibility as a wise person is usually questioned on three points: why is he rebuked by Galadriel in front of their court and the Fellowship; why isn't he on the White Council; and why doesn't he want the One Ring? Of course, the reason why he is rebuked is that Tolkien wants to convey something to the reader. And what is the author trying to tell us?

Celeborn is as astonished as everyone else at the (premature) news of Gandalf's death. When Celeborn says, "And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria," many readers get their hackles up. Hey, don't be dissin' our favorite Wizard, dude!

Read the rest here

[Michael Martinez]

I wrote something else about Celeborn a long time ago, but I'm not sure of where to find it. I'll try to dig it up.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Okay, maybe that's not fair to Gandalf. After all, someone has to be captured, and he is a convenient prisoner-type. He's all shifty-eyed and secretive -- it's a wonder Saruman didn't lock him up a thousand years earlier.

Neh heh, that was a fun read.