Wraiths Before the Ring

[FirstClassRanger]

Alright, I know this is like... an age old topic, I'm sure, but I want to get as close to a solid answer as I can get with this thing. This is one of the biggest things in all of Middle-Earth for me; both in terms of interest and importance, and how much it bugs me not knowing. What were the names and origins of the Nine??

Here's what I've got. Please contribute, either for or against whatever I might suggest. I know all Nine will never be named in terms of canon-iness, but I'm making an attempt to fill a void here. This is what I got (keep in mind that I'm not a Tolkien-atic Know-it-all ...I'm just a fan who wants to know more).

Here it goes!!

The Witch-King, I think, would've been Tar-Surion.
Khamul is Khamul, this we know.
Then I bring into question Gothmog. I'd like to believe that he was the third wraith. Not one of the Numenoreans, no doubt, but one of the other wraiths.
Other than these few I ain't got much on the subject, but I'm hoping a few hardcore Tolkies will get on board with this and provide me with some sort of make-shift answer. This bugs me because important people need names, for real. So please, help me... I'd like to sleep at night.

I appreciate it, and again... keep in mind that I don't know a whole lot.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by FirstClassRanger

This is one of the biggest things in all of Middle-Earth for me; both in terms of interest and importance, and how much it bugs me not knowing. What were the names and origins of the Nine??

There are many here who share your interest in nazgul. Welcome to the Moot, Ranger!

Originally Posted by FirstClassRanger

The Witch-King, I think, would've been Tar-Surion.

That would be the first time I hear this idea. But it could only be wrong. That's why:

IX. Tar-Súrion. He was the third child of Tar-Anárion; his sisters refused the sceptre. 7 He was born in the year 1174, and ruled for 162 years; he surrendered the sceptre in 1556, and died in 1574.- Unfinished Tales, Line of Elros

You see Tar-Surion, the IX King of Numenor, died in Second Age 1575. Sauron made the Ruling Ring in SA 1600, then attacked Eregion and acquired the Nine Rings in SA 1697. No way could he give one of the Nine to Tar-Surion, long-dead and gone beyond the Circles of the World.

The future nazgul had to be alive and active sometime after SA 1697, but likely before SA 2251 (The nazgul first appear - App B, LOTR) - that is the requirement imposed by Tolkien's dating of various events.

Now to the known hypotheses about the WK's possible identity an the list of "suspicious persons".

Kings of Numenor:
Tar-Minastir
Tar Ciryatan
Tar-Atanamir

For the first one the dates of the life fit, but little else. For Ciryatan and Atanamir there is a nice theory by Olmer that you can read here: http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12230 Pay attention to Olmer's posts on page 2.

Princes of Numenor:

Isilmo, father of Tar-Minastir, a very suspicious person. He should have been King, but somehow was circumvented - his sister ruled and then his son. That is all we know about the guy:

X. Tar-Telperien. She was the second Ruling Queen of Númenor. She was long-lived (for the women of the Númenóreans had the longer life, or laid down their lives less easily), and she would wed with no man. Therefore after her day the sceptre passed to Minastir; he was the son of Isilmo, the second child of Tar-Súrion. (8) Tar-Telperien was born in the year 1320; she ruled for 175 years, until 1731, and died in that same year.
Note 8:It is curious that the sceptre passed to Tar-Telperien when Tar-Súrion had a son, Isilmo. It may well be that the succession here depends on the formulation of the new law given in The Lord of the Rings, i.e. simple primogeniture irrespective of sex (see p. 218), rather than inheritance by a daughter only if the Ruler had no son.

The theory about Isilmo as the Witch-King can be read here: Isilmo

Unnamed prince, either brother or uncle of Tar-Ciryatan. Please read this excellent article by Alcuin:http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm

There is also Numruzir's Tal-Elmar theory, but I can't find the link anymore .

Originally Posted by FirstClassRanger

Khamul is Khamul, this we know.

Not much is known about him. He was an Easterling and was known as Khamul, the Shadow of the East, while he was Lieutenant of Dol Guldur in the Third Age. I believe Khamul is not his original name, but an epesse acquired after he became a wraith.

Then I bring into question Gothmog. I'd like to believe that he was the third wraith. Not one of the Numenoreans, no doubt, but one of the other wraiths.

You may be right, he was likely to be the third nazgul. Gothmog is obviously another epesse, given by Sauron. He may have been of any people: Southron, Easterling or Numenorean.

Other than these few I ain't got much on the subject, but I'm hoping a few hardcore Tolkies will get on board with this and provide me with some sort of make-shift answer. This bugs me because important people need names, for real. So please, help me... I'd like to sleep at night.

There are lists of names given to the nazgul in various non-Tolkien sources: MERP modules, cards collections, diverse fanfics etc. The MERP list even had a woman - Adunaphel. But these names have nothing to do with the Professor.
So, if you want to sleep well, compile your own list.

[barrelrider110]

In the Akallabêth it says:"...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race." Note he didn't implicitly state "Kings". I would eliminate those in the line of succession. Why would Sauron's promise appeal to them?

[FirstClassRanger]

And that is what I came here for! Thanks, Gordis. I figured I was wrong about Tar-Surion because I had limited knowledge on the subject... but from the information I did have, I made what I judged to be the best possible guess. Had I read all the books I own, I would've known I was wrong from the start. However, I'm more interested in acquiring knowledge through discussion, debate and trial-and-error over time... as opposed to reading.

It's more fun to theorize and take an uneducated stab in the dark and have a high risk of being told I'm wrong... 'cause in the case that I was right I'd be a genius for it.

You think "Gothmog" and "Khamul" are nick-names? This isn't something I'd considered.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by barrelrider110

In the Akallabêth it says:"...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race." Note he didn't implicitly state "Kings". I would eliminate those in the line of succession.

Well clearly there couldn't have been three Numenorean Kings among the nazgul . One maybe, though even that is hotly contested by some Tolkien scholars.
Yet, "great lords" seems to imply at least persons of the Line of Elros, if not specifically princes of the Royal family.

Originally Posted by barrelrider110

Why would Sauron's promise appeal to them?

You mean what appeal could a Ring have for a King of Numenor? There were at least two possible reasons:
1. Eternal life. Ar-Pharazon let all his kingdom and all his army be destroyed for this very snare. Immortality was most appealing to any man, even a King.
2. Sorcery. If a King was interested in supernatural (and every King had some hobby, as we learn from UT), then one of the Nine rings that provided an access into the Spirit World would open new horizons in sorcery.

You think "Gothmog" and "Khamul" are nick-names? This isn't something I'd considered.

Gothmog was called after the famous First Age lord of balrogs, head of Morgoth's Army. Do you see a human couple giving their baby-boy such a name?
On the contrary, I totally see a name like that granted by Sauron to one of his top servants in recompense for faithful service.

"Khamûl". Nobody knows what language is that. A good guess would be the Black tongue. If so, please compare the words "nazgûl" and "Khamûl". The first Black Tongue word is no mystery:
"nazgûl"= "ringwraith"
"nazg"="ring"
"ûl"="wraith"
My guess that "ûl" in "Khamûl" also means "wraith", "shadow".
And then it becomes obvious that it was the nickname given to the nazgûl after he had become a wraith, not at his birth.

The "Shadow of the East" that goes after "Khamul" (UT) may be a simple translation of the name. Especially considering that in the East there is a realm called "Khand", which quite probably means "Eastern land".

[FirstClassRanger]

I thought '-gul' meant magic (or sorcery)...

[Alcuin]

“-gul� as in “Morgul� means “sorcery� in Sindarin. “-ûl� as in “Nazgûl� means “wraith� in Black Speech, a language invented by Sauron and used mostly by him and his chief servants. That he borrowed from or used (or abused) Sindarin or to make it would not be surprising; and we know he used an Elvish script to inscribe his spell on the One Ring.

Tolkien says that the Kings of Númenor were embalmed in a manner similar to that of Egyptian pharaohs, and that they were all interred in valley called Noirinan at the south slope of Meneltarma, a forerunner of Rath DÃ*nen, the “Silent Streetâ€� in Minas Tirith where the kings and stewards of Gondor were buried beneath mount Mindolluin.

Khamûl is the only Nazgûl definitely named. I think Gordis is right on target with the meaning of his name: I had not considered it before. (Nazgûl are Gordis’ especial interest.) RotK Gothmog was the Lieutenant of (Minas) Morgul and took command of the army attacking Minas Tirith after the demise of the Witch-king, so lots of folks believe he might also be a Nazgûl.

Iron Crown Enterprises developed a popular game called Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP), similar to D&D or Traveller (if anyone remembers that oldie), in which they assigned names to the other eight Nazgûl. (ICE went bankrupt in 2000 and lost its license; MERP survives on the web. ICE also developed some really neat, highly-detailed maps of Middle-earth that are also non-canonical: in other words, you can’t use them to prove a point in a Tolkien-related forum – though sometimes folks try!) Here are ICE’s names for the Nazgûl, courtesy of Encyclopedia of Arda (a great resource):

1. Er-Murazor (the Witch-king, almost certainly a Númenórean)
2. Khamûl (the only canonical name: Tolkien gave it to him)
3. Dwar of Waw
4. Ji Indur Dawndeath
5. Akhorahil (another Númenórean)
6. Hoarmurath of Dir
7. Adûnaphel the Quiet (Númenórean woman)
8. Ren the Unclean
9. Uva the Horseman

If it is of any interest, I have recently read that

'Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King excellent' until after the downfall of Numenor.' JRRT, from notes in [Parma Eldalamberon] 17, base SAWA- 'disgusting, foul, vile'

I cannot independently verify the information, but I trust the source.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

1. Er-Murazor (the Witch-king, almost certainly a Númenórean)
2. Khamûl (the only canonical name: Tolkien gave it to him)
3. Dwar of Waw
4. Ji Indur Dawndeath
5. Akhorahil (another Númenórean)
6. Hoarmurath of Dir
7. Adûnaphel the Quiet (Númenórean woman)
8. Ren the Unclean
9. Uva the Horseman

You wouldn't happen to know what inspired Iron Crown Enterprises to give the names they did do you? Does the name Er-Murazor have any factual basis?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

You wouldn't happen to know what inspired Iron Crown Enterprises to give the names they did do you?

Profit, I presume.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Does the name Er-Murazor have any factual basis?

If by “factual basis�, you mean something written by Tolkien, no, I don’t believe it does. (I should willingly be corrected on this point by another ’Mooter.)

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Profit, I presume.
If by “factual basis”, you mean something written by Tolkien, no, I don’t believe it does. (I should willingly be corrected on this point by another ’Mooter.)

You're right.. probably profit. But what I meant is, do you know if they gave any reasons for why they chose the names they do. Are they taken out of thin air or do they mean anything.

I'm asking because some of them look amateurish and not Tolkienesque at all

[Alcuin]

Oh, if you want to speculate on the source of the names, I should say published Tolkien material at the time, D&D, and such late-night imbibings and libations as were common in the early- to middle-1980s.

“Er-Murazor” and “Adûnaphel” sound as if they might be faux-Adûnaic; “Adûnaphel” has –adun, Adûnaic for “west” in it. “Akhorahil” sounds as if it might be an attempt to get at a Sindarin-sounding name. (Akhorahil seems to have been called “the Blind Sorcerer” or “Akhorahil the Blind”.) “Er-Murazor”, “Akhorahil”, and “Adûnaphel” might all be worked out from what was known about Adûnaic and Sindarin at the time: you might start with the appendix to Silmarillion and see what was borrowed from the glossary; and there were other books published on Tolkien’s languages in the early 1980s, too. (I have one of them around here someplace…)

“Ji Indur Dawndeath” sounds like a character in Star Wars; it strikes me that it could be some corruption of the English “engender dawn death”, as in, “kill them at dawn”. “Ren the Unclean” kind of rhymes, and “Dwar of Waw” sort of alliterates. “Hoarmurath of Dir” reminds me of “hoar [old] muriatic acid”, leading to “hold the muriatic acid, dear.” “Uva the Horseman” – well, I can’t get anything out of that except ova, Latin for “eggs”, but then my imagination might not be what it used to be.

As I write, these names come back to me from decades ago, standing in the bookstore looking through the game books and wondering how these guys got the license after the first Lord of the Rings movies meshed with the D&D craze, and what they paid for it.

This is pure speculation and impression on my part. It all sounds silly, but I was a DM at the same time the guys at ICE were devising Nazgûl names. Coming up with names is a difficult business, especially when you have a deadline and lots of them to invent.

Anybody else who has a good idea should post it. Anyone who has any real knowledge – an old ICE or MERP employee or developer, perhaps – would be most welcome!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

You wouldn't happen to know what inspired Iron Crown Enterprises to give the names they did do you?

Profit, yes, and then they wanted to provide an interesting setting for the people to play in. That's why there is a woman among the Nine, although Tolkien almost certainly didn't intend this. It just makes a better story: the all-boys team is a bit dull. We have had the same problem in our two nazgul RPGs here on the Moot. We had even three nazgirls - and it was a lot of fun.

Does the name Er-Murazor have any factual basis?

No it does not. ""Murazor" is Adunaic, or seems to be Adunaic - but at the time Princes of the Royal family always used Quenia names, even if the name had a popular Adunaic translation.

What does "Er-" mean, I am not sure. If "Ernil"=Prince than it would be Sindarin, crazy to use it with Adunaic name. And I never saw "Ernil" form a prefix "Er-" like "Tar-" or "Ar-"


And take Adunaphel the ICE-MERP nazgulette. Want a laugh?

I think I have found out where the MERP guys took the idea. (For they are serious guys, some of their info has at least a slight basis in the canon. Hmm... very slight. )

Look here at this quote from the beginning of "A Knife in the Dark"

There was a faint stir in the leaves, and a cock crowed far away. The cold hour before dawn was passing. The figure by the door moved. In the dark without moon or stars a drawn blade gleamed, as if a chill light had been unsheathed. There was a blow, soft but heavy, and the door shuddered.
'Open, in the name of Mordor!' said a voice thin and menacing.

A THIN voice! So - here we have a woman! And if you reread Adunaphel's MERP story attentively, you will find out that it WAS Adunaphel who knocked on the door at Crickhollow!". No matter that later she broke the said door with two "soft but heavy" blows. Isn't she an awesome girl?

According to MERP she was the one who lived with Khamul in Dol Guldur away from the seven in Minas Morgul. I wonder if it was supposed to be a romance.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

“Uva the Horseman” – well, I can’t get anything out of that except ova, Latin for “eggs”, but then my imagination might not be what it used to be.

BTW, Alcuin, MERP had "Uvatha", not "Uva" for the ninth.

And here is the MERP story of Adunaphel:
7. Adunaphel, The Quiet Adunaphel / the Quiet / the Avenger
Rank: 7th in ranking of the Nazguls
Story: Adunaphel, a fair Numenorean princess from Forostar was the only female to become a Nazgul. Dissapointed that her younger brother should become heir to the throne, she left in anger and was grasped by hatred. Exact time and place for her meeting with the Dark Lord is unknown, but she was decieved by Sauron himself, not by an underling. Many signs point to the Second Age, around 2150. After the great plague ravaged Eriador in the mid Third-age, Gondor's watch on Mordor became less vigilant and Sauron sent Adunaphel to the black land to prepare for his eventual return. Adunaphel dwelt secretly in Nurn until the arrival of the Witch-king; whose coming heralded the Nazguls' assault on the tower of Minas Ithil. Its fall signified the end of Gondor's hold on the dark land. After Sauron's return to Barad-dur, Adunaphel was commanded to make fast the ancient stronghold of Dol guldur on the elves of Mirkwood, and later after the outbreak of the War of the Ring was involved with the other Nazgul in attempting to recapture the One Ring. She was unbound when the One ring was destroyed at Mount Doom by Frodo Baggins and/or Gollum.

[Alcuin]

Any of the eight remaining Nazgûl “unbound when the One ring was destroyed at Mount Doom� would surely “with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, … shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and [gone] out.� (RotK, “Mount Doom�) Unless, of course, Sauron decided to hold one or two in reserve - which does not seem to be the case, since the expedition Aragorn led from Minas Tirith “saw all the Nazgûl gathered together, hovering ... like vultures� (RotK, “The Black Gate Opens�), and presumably Sauron held nothing in reserve when he tried to retrieve his Ring from Frodo in Sammath Naur and prevent its destruction.

Though I suppose that, if for argument’s sake, any Nazgûl had survived (and to be clear, I think they were all destroyed), they would have been awfully, awfully old without their Rings.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Any of the eight remaining Nazgûl “unbound when the One ring was destroyed at Mount Doom” would surely “with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, … shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and [gone] out.” (RotK, “Mount Doom”) Unless, of course, Sauron decided to hold one or two in reserve - which does not seem to be the case, since the expedition Aragorn led from Minas Tirith “saw all the Nazgûl gathered together, hovering ... like vultures” (RotK, “The Black Gate Opens”), and presumably Sauron held nothing in reserve when he tried to retrieve his Ring from Frodo in Sammath Naur and prevent its destruction.

I didn't think that MERP implied the survival of any of the nazgul. "Unbound" might mean that their souls were finally free to leave the Circles, nothing more.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Though I suppose that, if for argument’s sake, any Nazgûl had survived (and to be clear, I think they were all destroyed), they would have been awfully, awfully old without their Rings.

I remember discussing it a few years ago: Tolkien had all the nazgul perish in the explosion, but what if (for argument's sake) a couple of them were sitting in Dol Guldur or in Minas-Morgul or on a hill in Rohan playing cards? Would they die on the spot or not?

Here is Udukhaturz's (Angmar's) post

Originally Posted by Udukhaturz

Life After Rings

Killing Nazgûl is not easy. If they are stabbed with a blade of Westernsee, their impotent spirits retreat back to Sauron. ("The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence." - Letter #246, Tolkien Letters, p. 331) In fact, they appear to be still living AFTER THE RING IS DESTROYED, a thing that is overlooked often times. For those of you who watched the film, you might have wondered why the Eight Nazgûl are still flying about after the Ring is destroyed, and only perished in the flames.

In this selection of text taken from Return of the King, Gollum has just gone over the brink with the One Ring, and Barad-dûr is falling. It appears that the Nazgûl still live, bodies and all, even though the Ring has been destroyed. They only perish in the fires of Mount Doom as they fly towards it. I can get no other interpretation of it, and this conclusion is supported by Tolkien's earlier outlines.

"And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, [Gollum] stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.

"There was a roar and a great confusion of noise. Fires leaped up and licked the roof. The throbbing grew to a great tumult, and the Mountain shook. Sam ran to Frodo and picked him up and carried him out to the door. And there upon the dark threshold of the Sammath Naur, high above the plains of Mordor, such wonder and terror came on him that he stood still forgetting all else, and gazed as one turned to stone.

"A brief vision he had of a swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, and the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled. Fire belched from its riven summit. The skies burst into thunder seared with lightning. Down like lashing whips fell a torrent of black rain. And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out."

- Mount Doom, Return of the King, p. 224

Here are excerpts from some of Tolkien's earlier outlines that seems to verify this "life after the Ring" premise. This is Version I, written sometime around 1939-1941.

Perhaps better would be to make Gollum repent in a way. He is utterly wretched, and commits suicide. Gollum has it, he cried. No one else shall have it. I will destroy you all. He leaps into crack. Fire goes mad. Frodo is like to be destroyed.

Nazgûl shape at the door. Frodo is caught in the fire-chamber and cannot get out!

Here we all end together, said the Ring Wraith.

Frodo is too weary and lifeless to say nay.

You first, said a voice, and Sam (with Sting?) stabs the Black Rider from behind.

Frodo and Sam escape and flee down mountain-side. But they could not escape the running molten lava. They see Eagles driving the Nazgûl. Eagles rescue them.

- The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version I, Sauron Defeated, p. 5

Here is Version II, which is more complicated than Version I, but shows the Witch-king as still around after the Ring goes into the fire.

"Frodo puts on Ring! A great cry rings out. A great shadow swoops down from Baraddur, like a bird. The Wizard King is coming. Frodo feels him - the one who stabbed him under Weathertop. He is wearing Ring and has been seen. He struggles to take Ring off and cannot. The Nazgûl draws near as swift as storm. Frodo's one idea is to escape it, and without thinking of his errand he now flies into the Chamber of Fire. A great fissure goes across it from left to right. Fire boils in it. All goes dark to Frodo and he falls on his knees. At that moment Gollum arrives panting and grabs at the Ring. That rouses Frodo, and they fight on the brink of the chasm. Gollum breaks Frodo's finger and gets Ring. Frodo falls in swoon. But Sam who has now arrived rushes in suddenly and pushes Gollum over the brink. Gollum and Ring go into the Fire together. The Mountain boils and erupts. Barad-dur falls. A great dust and a dark shadow floats away on NE from the rising SW wind. Frodo suddenly thinks he can hear and smell Sea. A dreadful shuddering cry is borne away and until it dies far off all men and things stand still.

"Frodo turns and sees door blocked by Wizard King. The mountain begins to erupt and crumble. Here we will perish together, said the Wizard King. But Frodo draws Sting. He no longer has any fear whatsoever. He is master of the Black Riders. He commands the Black Rider to follow the Ring his master and drives it into the fire."

-The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version II, Sauron Defeated, p. 6-7

At least the movie got some things right. This quote, taken from a movie companion book which is strictly based upon the films, explains "life after the Ring" perhaps better than I can.

"When Aragorn led his army to the Black Gate the Nazgûl were part of the host that attacked them there, but they were commanded by Sauron to fly to Mount Doom when he perceived what was about to happen. Yet despite their great speed they were too late, and perished in the inferno caused by their master's destruction."

- The Lord of the Rings Weapons and Warfare by Chris Smith, p. 167

and my reply:

Originally Posted by Gordis

Life After Rings - Not for Long!

I agree that the Nazgûl were NOT destroyed in the same instant that the One Ring melted. The quotes Angmar gave are quite convincing.

But why?

I think that this was because the Nine Nazgûl were NOT DIRECTLY DEPENDENT on the One. Sauron was. He made his shape again, wielding the One, after his body perished in the fall of Númenor. It took about 100 years. He had great difficulties reshaping himself in the Third Age because he could not WIELD the One. He was able to re-flesh himself in about 1500-2000 years, because the One still existed somewhere. I think he used the remaining Dwarven rings for that, which he gradually collected while he sat in Dol Guldur.

Now the Nazgûl were dependent on the NINE rings (not the One) in much the same way. I think, IF Sauron would just go to Orodruin and throw one of the Nine Rings into the Fire, the corresponding Nazgûl would be killed on the spot, his body falling to nothing, his clothes left behind, and his spirit going to Mandos.

I think the Nazgûl existed as long as their NAZGÛL RINGS existed and HAD POWER. The last part is very important. The Nine, the Seven and the Three all depended on the One. When the One was destroyed, what happened to the other Rings? Sauron had the remaining Seven and all the Nine in his physical possession at the moment of the Fall of Barad Dûr. The One was melted, but the Seven and Nine were not! Most likely they were simply BURIED under the ruins of Barad-Dûr.

We know what happened with the Three. They lost their power GRADUALLY after the destruction of the One. Lórien, made with the power of Nenya, had not disappeared in a blast; the same is also true with Rivendell. Both gradually WANED. Bilbo, though he was now very old for a hobbit, didn't die immediately, but started to show his age considerably, and was waning fast.

So if we consider that, with the destruction of the Ruling Ring, the power of the Nine gradually waned, then the Nazgûl were doomed all the same. Sooner or later, the Nine Rings would loose their power and that's when the Nazgûl would end.

That's why, perhaps, the Witch-King sounded so suicidal: "Here we will perish together," instead of just throwing the little hobbit into the chasm and saving his own "eternal" life.

[Alcuin]

Just a thought: we might need another thread for this…

Gandalf’s opinion seems to have been that Bilbo resumed his life as it was before the Ring once he gave it up. His explanation to Frodo in FotR, “Shadow of the Past�:

[Bilbo] felt better at once [after giving up the Ring]... Of course, he possessed the ring for many years, and used it, so it might take a long while for the influence to wear off – before it was safe for him to see it again, for instance. Otherwise, he might live on for years, quite happily: just stop as he was when he parted with it.

Gollum aged 78 years after Bilbo found the Ring in the orc-tunnels of the Misty Mountains. The Ring had a more pronounced effect on him: he might have aged more slowly during those 78 years for instance, because he was more nearly under control of “the Precious�. Appendix B says that Déagol found the Ring about III 2463, and Sméagol murdered him immediately. They were fairly young hobbits from the description Tolkien gave: perhaps in their 20s. That would make Gollum chronologically over 570 years old, but practically about 100: in human terms, quite old, even if still strong, spry, and wiry. That is how Tolkien describes him. When the effects of the Ring were at their very nadir, when Sméagol nearly repents before sending Frodo into Shelob’s lair, Tolkien writes in TT, “Stairs of Cirith Ungol�:

Gollum looked at [Frodo and Sam]. … The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. … For a fleeting moment, … they would have … beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.

Personally, I think that Gollum “aged� less than 78 years: the power of the One Ring over him was very great; but in any case, he was old, physically and mentally. I think the Nazgûl would have been much the same: they ceased to age normally once they received their Rings.

Tolkien describes the other hobbits’ perception of Bilbo at the beginning of FotR in “A Long-expected Party�:

Time wore on, but it seemed to have little effect on Mr. Baggins. At ninety he was much the same as at fifty. At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved, but unchanged would have been nearer the mark. There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth.

Bilbo’s description to Gandalf of his perception of the effects of the Ring in the same chapter was,

Well-preserved indeed! … I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.

When Frodo put on the Ring at Weathertop, the five Nazgûl appear to him with “grey hairs� and “haggard hands� – signs of age. Aging for them might not have stopped altogether (another deceit of necromancy: perhaps the lives of these Men were not extended indefinitely: a devil is apt to forget his bargains and cheat his partners), and they continued to get older, but at a much decelerated pace. I think the Witch-king was about 4,850 years old when Éowyn beheaded him, and if as I suspect he was the last of the Ringwraiths to be ensnared, the others were older, perhaps by a centuries.

Still, if the power of the One Ring was ended, and they were left, I imagine that the Nazgûl would have been old, but hale and not dead yet.

[Gordis]

Alcuin, I agree with what you said about Bilbo and Gollum, but not about the nazgul.
Actually, Bilbo didn't age dramatically between the time he left the Ring to Frodo (TA 3001) and the War of the Ring (3018). It was only after the Ring was destroyed that he has aged very fast:

Arwen: "For you know the power of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you. He is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits you, for he will not again make any long journey save one."-LOTR, Many partings.

I think it was like that. Bilbo was 50 when he got the Ring. He remained the same age (physically) until 3001, then started to age again. So by 3018 he was 50+17=67 years old physically. With the Ring destroyed, he became 111+17=128 years old all of a sudden, which is very old for a hobbit.

As for Gollum, let us say he was 17 in TA 2463, when he got the Ring. He was physically still 17 when he lost it in 2941. He started to age almost normally, so by 3018 he was 17+77= 94 - old, but still fit and quite well adapted to the life in the wilderness. However he knew that with the Ring destroyed he would "turn into dust" (becoming suddenly 573 years old and thus dead.)

And in addition there likely have been some lingering effects of the ring, making those who had it once age at a slower rate afterwards.

But all this IMO, applies to LIVING humans, not wraiths. Once you become a wraith, there are other - "unnatural" - rules for you. Your body is functioning unnaturally, it is cold, invisible, your vision is different, you use "other senses", you don't need to sleep, to breathe or to eat. And finally, if you are killed, you just disappear completely, leaving no invisible corpse behind.

I don't think the wraiths aged at all- in TA 3018 they must have looked exactly like at the time when they had turned into wraiths back in mid-SA.

But it is NOT the same as they looked when they got the Rings, though they remained the same age. I will explain why.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

When Frodo put on the Ring at Weathertop, the five Nazgûl appear to him with “grey hairs� and “haggard hands� – signs of age.

Yet, Frodo doesn't call the WK "old king" or "ancient king", but "pale king" and "haggard king". One can get grey hairs and haggard hands not because of age strictly speaking, not because one lived many years and it showed, but also from hardship and suffering. Think Gwindor the Elf when he returned from Angband. A few years had passed, but he had become a wreck.

The last years of the nazgul's unnaturally stretched lives must have been a living hell: both mental and physical. Bilbo at 111 was only starting to feel uncomfortable: "stretched" and restless (by the way, note that despite the plentiful life in Bag End his old clothes seemed to become too big for him -so he lost weight without any apparent reason). The nazgul had traveled this road to the very end, when "every moment was a weariness". If, when they got the Rings, they were looking young, rosy-cheeked and healthy, they could look so no more at the end. The suffering made them haggard, pale and grey. And the more they resisted the Rings, the more they suffered.

The rings, after all, only prevent ageing per se, not changing. Gollum had become unrecognizable even as a hobbit after living in this cave for 500 years. The nazgul only became haggard.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

the Witch-king was about 4,850 years old when Éowyn beheaded him, and if as I suspect he was the last of the Ringwraiths to be ensnared, the others were older, perhaps by a century or two.

I think Sauron distributed the Nine Rings at about the same time, to men of the same generation, but the WK would normally have 400 years to live, so he must have become a wraith the last.

[Alcuin]

Gordis. I think I’m compelled to agree. A few follow-on questions and so forth...

Originally Posted by Gordis

With the Ring destroyed, [Bilbo] became 111+17=128 years old all of a sudden, which is very old for a hobbit.

As for Gollum, ... knew that with the Ring destroyed he would "turn into dust" (becoming suddenly 573 years old and thus dead.)

How did Gollum know? From the Ring? Intuitively? The draft versions you cited before show that Tolkien thought the Witch-king would still be alive and quite potent after the One Ring was destroyed.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Once you become a wraith, there are other - "unnatural" - rules for you. Your body is functioning unnaturally, it is cold, invisible, your vision is different, you use "other senses", you don't need to sleep, to breathe or to eat. And finally, if you are killed, you just disappear completely, leaving no invisible corpse behind.

I’ve never queried a wraith about his dining habits or preferences. Aragorn said they could smell and desired the blood of living creatures, but whether that was knowledge or folklore I cannot say. I’m certain the Dúnedain of the North – and the Elves around old Arnor – had a store of real knowledge and erroneous information concerning wraiths, though they were knowledgeable enough to make the barrow-blades, which proved extremely effective against wraiths.

As for the bodies of wraiths, I agree, too, but for a slightly different reason, I think: I believe the bodies of the wraiths faded just as Elves faded in Middle-earth, only much faster: that’s why they became invisible when they put on their Rings, and that’s why the Eldar could see them. The wraith-world, the “other side” that Shagrat and Gorbag discussed, and the realm of the faded Elves were all one and the same: the spirit realm. Elves continued to exist in the normal, physical world even after fading: they could see it normally and interact with it normally if they so chose, even faded, or so I read the material in Morgoth’s Ring. Men did not get there naturally: their connection to the everyday world was disrupted by the necromantic power of the Rings, and they could no longer perceive it as before.

Such an outcome would make a person like Glorfindel a real threat to the Witch-king, for instance. I suspect the Witch-king, being a sorcerer, had better perception of his surroundings that the rest of the Nazgûl; but by himself, as he was after the last Battle of Fornost, Glorfindel had far better perception and tremendous combat advantage over him. It might well have taken several Ringwraiths to deal with him, as Gandalf explained to Frodo in Rivendell: on foot, not even Glorfindel and Aragorn together were a match for the mounted Ringwraiths all together.

Originally Posted by Gordis

...note that despite the plentiful life in Bag End [Bilbo’s] old clothes seemed to become too big for him -so he lost weight without any apparent reason

I didn’t remember this point. I don’t want to seem churlish, but do you remember whether that was in the published LotR or the draft versions?

Originally Posted by Gordis

The nazgul had traveled this road to the very end, when "every moment was a weariness". If, when they got the Rings, they were looking young, rosy-cheeked and healthy, they could look so no more at the end. The suffering made them haggard, pale and grey. And the more they resisted the Rings, the more they suffered.

The rings, after all, only prevent ageing per se, not changing. Gollum had become unrecognizable even as a hobbit after living in this cave for 500 years. The nazgul only became haggard.

This is an outstanding notion! I cannot say what Tolkien intended, but I think that is one of the best insights about Nazgûl appearance and existence I’ve ever read. These creatures were miserable.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think Sauron distributed the Nine Rings at about the same time, to men of the same generation, but the WK would normally have 400 years to live, so he must have become a wraith the last.

I think Sauron chose each of his victims very carefully and with considerable thought and fiendish foresight and insight into the character and abilities of the individuals. I believe he recruited each personally, which would necessarily imply that he entrapped them sequentially. (It does not rule out working several potential Ringwraiths at once, though.) I think the Witch-king was logically the last one, but only because it makes the most sense in terms of literature, in story structure; he could have been anywhere along the route.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

How did Gollum know? From the Ring? Intuitively?
The draft versions you cited before show that Tolkien thought the Witch-king would still be alive and quite potent after the One Ring was destroyed.

Yes, maybe the Ring "told" him, maybe he just knew it intuitively. Maybe either Sauron or Gandalf said something that would lead him to this conclusion, but I think intuition is a more reasonable hypothesis than logic with a half-mad creature like Gollum.

As for the WK being yet alive and Gollum turning to dust at the destruction of the One, I think it reflects the slower waning of the power of the Nine, the Seven and the Three as compared to abrupt disappearance of the power of the One. Barad Dur fell at once, but Lorien faded in a few years: it is not like all the mallorns disappeared in a cloud of yellow smoke. I think the nazgul had very little time left to live anyway (a few hours maybe or a few days), as the Nine rings were weaker than the Three and more connected to the One. I don't know for sure.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I’ve never queried a wraith about his dining habits or preferences. Aragorn said they could smell and desired the blood of living creatures, but whether that was knowledge or folklore I cannot say.

The nazgul "smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it" They do sound like vampires, don't they? The only real piece of knowldge we possess about the nazgul diet is this:

[The WK] rode as swift as he could back to Mordor. At swiftest he could not accomplish that (for his horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none) ere November had passed.-"Hunt for the Ring" RC p. 262

The nazgul didn't need to eat, but that doesn't mean, IMO, that they couldn't and didn't eat.
They didn't need to breathe (otherwise Gandalf wouldn't be so sure that not a single one had drowned in Bruinen), but we know they did breathe - hobbits heard the sound of their breathing.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

As for the bodies of wraiths, I agree, too, but for a slightly different reason, I think: I believe the bodies of the wraiths faded just as Elves faded in Middle-earth, only much faster: that’s why they became invisible when they put on their Rings, and that’s why the Eldar could see them. The wraith-world, the “other side” that Shagrat and Gorbag discussed, and the realm of the faded Elves were all one and the same: the spirit realm. Elves continued to exist in the normal, physical world even after fading: they could see it normally and interact with it normally if they so chose, even faded, or so I read the material in Morgoth’s Ring. Men did not get there naturally: their connection to the everyday world was disrupted by the necromantic power of the Rings, and they could no longer perceive it as before.

I personally don't think there would be much difference between nazgul and faded Elves's perception of the physical world ...As the nazgul, the Lingerers have become creatures of the Spirit World almost entirely. Another matter are the Calaquendi who live in both words. Also I think that Elven fading involved as much suffering as human fading - that's why most Elves hurried to Valinor in fear.

And, thinking of that, maybe the Numenoreans among the future nazgul considered using the same escape - maybe that's why during the times of Cityatan and Atanamir the Numenoreans started openly speaking against the Ban? If they could settle in Valinor, their fading would stop...

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Such an outcome would make a person like Glorfindel a real threat to the Witch-king, for instance. I suspect the Witch-king, being a sorcerer, had better perception of his surroundings that the rest of the Nazgûl; but by himself, as he was after the last Battle of Fornost, Glorfindel had far better perception and tremendous combat advantage over him. It might well have taken several Ringwraiths to deal with him, as Gandalf explained to Frodo in Rivendell: on foot, not even Glorfindel and Aragorn together were a match for the mounted Ringwraiths all together.

I think you are right in that. + I believe Glorfindel had more power in the World of Shadow, where he was "by right" and not "unlawfully" like the nazgul.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I didn’t remember this point. I don’t want to seem churlish, but do you remember whether that was in the published LotR or the draft versions?

It is in LOTR main text, when Bilbo packs before leaving Bag End.

From a locked drawer, smelling of moth-balls, [Bilbo] took out an old cloak and hood. They had been locked up as if they were very precious, but they were so patched and weatherstained that their original colour could hardly be guessed: it might have been dark green. They were rather too large for him. -A Long-expected Party

Originally Posted by Alcuin

This is an outstanding notion! I cannot say what Tolkien intended, but I think that is one of the best insights about Nazgûl appearance and existence I’ve ever read. These creatures were miserable.

Thank you, Alcuin!.
I don't think they continued to feel as miserable after becoming wraiths, but they surely had first-hand knowledge of misery, despair and suffering. That's why they could cause these feelings in others just by shrieking.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I think Sauron chose each of his victims very carefully and with considerable thought and fiendish foresight and insight into the character and abilities of the individuals. I believe he recruited each personally, which would necessarily imply that he entrapped them sequentially. (It does not rule out working several potential Ringwraiths at once, though.) I think the Witch-king was logically the last one, but only because it makes the most sense in terms of literature, in story structure; he could have been anywhere along the route.

Right. But it certainly took more time for the WK to fade than for the others.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

As for the WK being yet alive and Gollum turning to dust at the destruction of the One, I think it reflects the slower waning of the power of the Nine, the Seven and the Three as compared to abrupt disappearance of the power of the One. Barad Dur fell at once, but Lorien faded in a few years: it is not like all the mallorns disappeared in a cloud of yellow smoke. I think the nazgul had very little time left to live anyway (a few hours maybe or a few days), as the Nine rings were weaker than the Three and more connected to the One. I don't know for sure.

I agree. The Nine, Seven, and Three were originally independent of the One, at least before Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire. That leads to two distinct conclusions: (1) the other Great Rings of Power were capable of works independently of Sauron and the One Ring; and (2) the power of the One over them was insidious, like a back-door computer Trojan that slowly takes over your laptop.

The works of the other Rings might not then end abruptly, but tail off either quickly or slowly after the destruction of the One Ring. If the One was designed both to draw power from others to Sauron and to enslave their wills to Sauron, its destruction seems to have created a “hole� into which the power sustaining the works of the other Rings drained. “I don't know for sure� either, but I think it makes sense.

Originally Posted by Gordis

It is in LOTR main text, when Bilbo packs before leaving Bag End.

Here I must disagree, but I do not think you will be disappointed. From Hobbit, “Roast Mutton�, when Bilbo first sets off on his Adventure without his pocket-handkerchief,

…Bilbo was wearing a dark-green hood (a little weather-stained) and a dark-green cloak borrowed from Dwalin. They were too large for him, and he looked rather comic.