the definative balrog answer :)

[Wayfarer]

You have a biting wit that I enjoy, but there were a few errors in your post.

I appreciate the help.

"I is not a reflexive pronoun. It is a person pronoun."

I suppose that's true. I was thinking reflexive=back on ones self.

Truth be told, I never was much for knowing what those things were. Although I finally learned what a geran is, and thus can no longer use it as an example of 'things nobody needs to know'

"I think you meant that HE dislikes your tone. Not that you dislike your tone. I think you like your tone very much."

I knew what he meant. He forgot to put an I before it, as I noted above (the exact manner of pronoun being quite beside the point)

Did you perhaps mean euphemism?

What can I say? SIC

Did you perhaps mean remonstarting or even demonstrating?

No, I meant premonstration. That is, the appearance of. Saying 'lol' had the appearance of thinking that what he said was funny. I did, of course.


"I won't even feign to know what that means."

I'd post a link to some morty/braldor poems, but anduin thought the preface to bored of the rings was bad (and I'm not one to tempt fate)


theorum

"Unless this is a British spelling this word is new to me. The word theorem which seems the closet in spelling does not apply to your sentence. ( at least not in a way that makes sense to me). But, if you meant forum then it makes more sense."

His point, Idea, theorem. yeah, a mispeleng on my part. He had theorized that balrog wings were metaphorical. I suppose theory would have been more correct.

"Were you using erudite it is actually meaning (learned) or in its popular form meaning (rude or arrogant?)"

A little of both. I was attempting to come off as high and lofty, while at the same time managing to be somewhat arrogant.

"Other wise I loved your biting wit. I just hope it is not turned against me."

You shall have to ask Randy...er, inoldil... about the time I megaflamed him. Of course, we were both much less mature (and less educated.) Although, the aforementioned Morthoron is far my better in this fine art. Not bad, for someone three times my age with half my IQ. ]

Oh, I can't help myself. Here's but a sample of the works of morthoron and braldor:

Edited by Inoldonil: Not for our younger posters!
Middle-earth Poetry Contest on the Tolkien Trail!

So I lied. Maybe I _am_ one to tempt fate.

[afro-elf]

i am glad you tempted fate

that was some sick genius



to bad its over i would have like to have joined in the fray

[Wayfarer]

Ah, yes. Unfortunately, braldor has temporarily retired from our forums. I'll let you know when he get's back. (the dwarf/elf poems are somewhat of a routine over there.

[Agburanar]

Past a teacher surely! Just like you can't get past the Balrog cos his WINGS get in the way (whether you believe in them or not.)

[Arathorn II]

Balrogs were Maia, the same basic beings as Sauron, though like a different breed of dog, as it were. They powerful, but in different ways. But while the Balrog were corrupted by Morgoth, Sauron was Morgoth's servant basically from the start. They both ruled by terror and brute power. Balrogs were intelligent, and a main weapon of Morgoth. They were cunning, and laid traps and sieges with equal success.

[Kirinki54]

Is it ever mentioned that Balrogs speak? If so, how?

[Arathorn II]

"Is it ever mentioned that Balrogs speak? If so, how?"

Not that I can find, in the Silmarillion or elsewhere.

[Agburanar]

The power of speech is a subject covered extenisively by Tolkien, Saruman and Sauron both use it to further their enterprises and Gandalf himself uses it to his benefit (and that of the free peoples of course). Morgoth seems to have preffered force and so his creations (eg the Balrogs) seem to have been unable to speak. Possibly this is how Sauron managed to survive, he was more cunning and less brutal.

The orcs were corruptions of other races and so were capable of speech but Morgoth altered them to limit and corrupt their speech, meaning that Sauron had to 'import' other speakers (Saruman, The Mouth, The Nazgul etc.)? Can you tell I'm writing this on a college computer???

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Agburanar
Morgoth seems to have preffered force and so his creations (eg the Balrogs) seem to have been unable to speak.

The Balrogs do come across as the strong silent type...
Which makes it again a bit surprising that Gothmog was the Captain of Angband.

College computer? Not apparent to me.

[Wayfarer]

*MENTAL PICTURE*

Large horde of orcs and men assembled in angband cavern. Gothmog on podium, waving his arms and wings wildly like a silent movie hitler.

*/ Points to gates at the end of the room.

Horde rushes through door and out onto the plain.

*/Points to armies of the Noldor.

Horde rushes across plain toward Noldor.

*/Points to Feanor

Horde rushes and surrounds Feanor.

*/Points to ground.

Other balrogs rush up with maces and batter feanor into the ground.

Hey. This could work!

[afro-elf]

you are twisted

Meant as a compliment

[Wayfarer]

*/Speaks from underneath the table due to his contorted position.

"Thanks...But I could use a Little help getting _un_ twisted now...

[Ñólendil]

Arathorn, welcome!

Sauron was not a servant of Morgoth 'basically from the start'. Not anymore than the Balrogs, if not indeed less. Sauron was originally of Aule's people.

Balrogs speaking: in a letter Tolkien noted that the Balrog of Mória never made any audible sound whatsoever, and seems to imply that this was normal for the Balrogs (of which Tolkien decided that there were very few). But the Balrog lets out a terrible cry as he falls down the Chasm, or so the text seems to say.

Angburanar, Morgoth did not make the Balrogs! They were created by Eru, Morgoth corrupted them. Not as he did to 'make' the Orcs: he corrupted them spritually, on purpose or indirectly.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Balrogs speaking: in a letter Tolkien noted that the Balrog of Mória never made any audible sound whatsoever, and seems to imply that this was normal for the Balrogs (of which Tolkien decided that there were very few).

Thanks for the info but makes me wonder just how they communicated. Obviously they must have some means. Remember our discussion on Gothmog the commander of Angband? Telepathy? And could they use their abilities to anyone or just "the dark side"?

[Elenhin]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Sauron was not a servant of Morgoth 'basically from the start'. Not anymore than the Balrogs, if not indeed less. Sauron was originally of Aule's people.

To me the texts seem to suggest that the Balrogs were originally maiar of Melkor, just as much as Sauron was a maia of Aule and Osse was a maia of Ulmo. Which, I think, you are saying here.

Balrogs speaking: in a letter Tolkien noted that the Balrog of Mória never made any audible sound whatsoever, and seems to imply that this was normal for the Balrogs (of which Tolkien decided that there were very few). But the Balrog lets out a terrible cry as he falls down the Chasm, or so the text seems to say.

I disagree with your interpretation of the letter. What Tolkien wrote is: "The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer..." (italics in the original). This letter was in response to a proposed movie storyline - which was really unfaithful to the books - and it seems that the writer of the storyline had made the Balrog laugh and sneer at the Fellowship in the Bridge scene. I don't think that Tolkien was talking about the Balrog's ability to speak, but just about the fact that it never speaks in the bridge scene.

Remember also that the Balrog had cast a counter-spell to Gandalf's door-closing spell, and in Middle-earth spells are usually sung or chanted (Gandalf, Bombadil, Barrow-wights, Felagund...). I also believe that the Balrog was in command of the orcs in Moria and that it had to instruct them by speaking.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Elenhin

To me the texts seem to suggest that the Balrogs were originally maiar of Melkor, just as much as Sauron was a maia of Aule and Osse was a maia of Ulmo. Which, I think, you are saying here.

There were no maiur of melkor, at least not spoken of the texts. The other Valar were each specialists, Melkor was a jack of all trades, so to speak.

When he tried to set up his own 'lordship', a number of ainur from all different backgrounds followed him. Foremost were the maiur of aule, which included sauron and the balrogs.

[Ñólendil]

I disagree with your interpretation of the letter. What Tolkien wrote is: "The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer..." (italics in the original). This letter was in response to a proposed movie storyline - which was really unfaithful to the books - and it seems that the writer of the storyline had made the Balrog laugh and sneer at the Fellowship in the Bridge scene. I don't think that Tolkien was talking about the Balrog's ability to speak, but just about the fact that it never speaks in the bridge scene.

But Tolkien says the Balrog did not make any vocal sound at all. That is not true, as it lets out a terrible cry whilst falling down the Chasm.

Shannon (do you mind me calling you that?), the Balrogs are not said to be of Aule's people in the Beginning. The only members of his people that have been named are Curumo and Thauron (Sauron). I guess it's true that he had no people per se in the beginning, and that he gained his followers during the Ainulindalë, when he set his discord against the Themes of God. That maybe is when the Balrogs came to him. If pressed, I would guess that they were originally of the people of Varda and/or Vána, if the other Valar indeed had their own folk then. If not then you could say Melkor had his own people.

[ArwenEvenstar]

Originally posted by Agburanar
The Balrog could have potentially been an image of everyone's worst nightmare, so it would have a different form (although still fiery) for everyone. No wings required! The end.

That actually makes sense

[Agburanar]

Cheers Arwen.

If Morgoth corrupted the Balrogs... hmm, thought coming but can't quite get it...

They must have joined him of their own free will, Morgoth couldn't have enslaved and tortured them by himself could he? So if the Balrogs were like Sauron, they were Maia, and chose to be with Morgoth, could Sauron not have attained a similar form? What made him different from the Balrogs or were they something completely different, more corrupted trolls or something?

[Comic Book Guy]

The Balrogs were Maia of fire, which, when corrupted they chose to become the 'Valaraukar' which means 'Fire-Demon', most probally to strike fear into the hearts of Elves and Orcs. Sauron was Maia of Aulë and was a skin changer, so he didn't have one real form.