A question of Sauron and the Ring

**hama** · 12-01-2001, 02:56 AM

This may be an obvious question to those who have spent more time reading background material such as the Simarillion and Lost Tales, etc., than I have.

We all know that Sauron and Mordor are destroyed with the destruction of the Ring. However we also know that Sauron existed and grew powerful before the Ring was created. Obviously he was powerful enough to force/trick the the elves to create the The One Ring of power. (I think that is right but correct me if I am wrong.)

So my question is, If Sauron was able to exist and grow powerful before the Ring was created, then why does the destruction of the Ring cause his demise?"

Perhaps his earlier defeat and loss of the Ring weakened him so much that his very existence and return to power were drawn from the Power that he invested in the One Ring. Can somone share with me a more definitive answer?

***Fat middle*** · 12-01-2001, 08:18 AM

i don't think this will be "definitive", but anyway here's my contribution:

Quote:

Perhaps his earlier defeat and loss of the Ring weakened him so much that his very existence and return to power were drawn from the Power that he invested in the One Ring.

No and yes.

i don't think his earlier defeat has anything to do with his final defeat. But 'tis true that in order to make the One he had to "invest power in the Ring", as you put it.

To make a ring of power, as well as to make any "magical object" the maker need to let some of his own power (perhaps it's better to say of his own being) pass to the object. Therefore, if the object is destroyed that power/being is lost.

In order to make a Ruling Ring, Sauron need to past almost all his power to Ring.

noldo · 12-01-2001, 09:52 AM

And the Elves did not forge the One Ring, it was made in the fires of Mount Doom by the Dark Lord himself. And he did it in secret, and the Rings of Power the Elves of Ost-in-Edhil had made according to his instructions, were bound with its power.

Bacchus · 12-01-2001, 10:24 AM

Sauron on two occasions needed to reconstruct an incarnate form. The first time was after the fall of Numenor. For this reconstruction, Sauron had the Ring in his posession, and his re-incarnation took approximately 100 years, if memory serves. The second occasion was after the loss of the Ring (but not its destruction). This reincarnation took approximately 1000 years, presumably because Sauron did not then have actual posession of the Ring. The fact that Sauron's native power embedded inthe Ring still existed enabled him to draw upon it to reincarnate himself, although with more difficulty than if he had been in physical possession of it. Once the Ring went into the Fire, however, the power residing in it was released into the environment (causing a major volcanic eruption). Once this energy was released, it was no longer in a coherent enough form to allow Sauron to again draw upon it to reincarnate himself.

Darkside Spirit · 12-01-2001, 01:21 PM

You learn something every day

very interesting post Bacchus! I've never really given consideration to more complicated issues like this - since Star Wars is my main love, I just read the book and left it at that.

Bacchus · 12-01-2001, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkside Spirit
You learn something every day very interesting post Bacchus! I've never really given consideration to more complicated issues like this - since Star Wars is my main love, I just read the book and left it at that.

(bows) "Your most humble servant, Bacchus"

rashbold · 12-01-2001, 10:15 PM

When the One Ring was destroyed in the very fires in which it was forged, Sauron was not destroyed, but diminished him to a near- impotent spirit of malice. So much of his power was invested in his Ring (he needed to, in order to control the Three) that there was little left. Even though his Ring was lost althroughout the Third Age, it was not destroyed, and Sauron could still retain his coherence.
But you are wondering, if Sauron wore the One Ring before and during the War of the Last Alliance, and he was defeated, how can this be so? During those days, the forces of the Last Alliance were more powerful that in the War of the Ring. The forces of Gil-galad was very formidable, and the Númenoreans-in-exile, though diminished relatively speaking, had still more than enough knowledge and lore, as well as the numbers to mount a winning campaign. And of course, Sauron was not Melkor-Morgoth.

Wayfarer · 12-02-2001, 04:06 PM

Actually... I no longer subscribe to the idea that the ring merely magnified his [sauron's] innate power.

There is quite a compelling argument for the ring having tapped into the Morgoth element in Arda. I'm not well versed in the specefic arguments but, despite the fact that Xander (the crowley-in-middle-earth-guy) is a proponent of this theory, I find it to be quite compelling.

For example... sauron doesn't need the ring in his posession. As long as it was in existance, he grew continually stronger. To be sure, when it was in his immediate posession, he gained power faster, but even when it was lost for a milennia, it trickled enough power to him that he would have won in the end had it not been destroyed.

Agburanar · 12-04-2001, 05:00 AM

'I have only just begun to wonder about the ring.'

Not even the council of Elrond knew what power the ring gave Sauron and how. It was suggested that they dropped it in the sea and left it there. It's possible that not even Sauron knew the full effect of the ring or he would surely have trusted it to come to him?

12-01-2001, 02:56 AM	#1
hama Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 181	A question of Sauron and the Ring This may be an obvious question to those who have spent more time reading background material such as the Simarillion and Lost Tales, etc., than I have. We all know that Sauron and Mordor are destroyed with the destruction of the Ring. However we also know that Sauron existed and grew powerful before the Ring was created. Obviously he was powerful enough to force/trick the the elves to create the The One Ring of power. (I think that is right but correct me if I am wrong.) So my question is, If Sauron was able to exist and grow powerful before the Ring was created, then why does the destruction of the Ring cause his demise?" Perhaps his earlier defeat and loss of the Ring weakened him so much that his very existence and return to power were drawn from the Power that he invested in the One Ring. Can somone share with me a more definitive answer?

12-01-2001, 09:52 AM	#3
noldo Elven Icon Maker Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Finland Posts: 517	And the Elves did not forge the One Ring, it was made in the fires of Mount Doom by the Dark Lord himself. And he did it in secret, and the Rings of Power the Elves of Ost-in-Edhil had made according to his instructions, were bound with its power. __________________ "I can't even think straight!" "Orange is the new pink, and men are the new women." Last edited by noldo : 12-01-2001 at 09:54 AM.

12-01-2001, 10:24 AM	#4
Bacchus Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Houston TX USA Posts: 245	Sauron on two occasions needed to reconstruct an incarnate form. The first time was after the fall of Numenor. For this reconstruction, Sauron had the Ring in his posession, and his re-incarnation took approximately 100 years, if memory serves. The second occasion was after the loss of the Ring (but not its destruction). This reincarnation took approximately 1000 years, presumably because Sauron did not then have actual posession of the Ring. The fact that Sauron's native power embedded inthe Ring still existed enabled him to draw upon it to reincarnate himself, although with more difficulty than if he had been in physical possession of it. Once the Ring went into the Fire, however, the power residing in it was released into the environment (causing a major volcanic eruption). Once this energy was released, it was no longer in a coherent enough form to allow Sauron to again draw upon it to reincarnate himself. __________________ Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

12-01-2001, 10:15 PM	#7
rashbold Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 26	When the One Ring was destroyed in the very fires in which it was forged, Sauron was not destroyed, but diminished him to a near- impotent spirit of malice. So much of his power was invested in his Ring (he needed to, in order to control the Three) that there was little left. Even though his Ring was lost althroughout the Third Age, it was not destroyed, and Sauron could still retain his coherence. But you are wondering, if Sauron wore the One Ring before and during the War of the Last Alliance, and he was defeated, how can this be so? During those days, the forces of the Last Alliance were more powerful that in the War of the Ring. The forces of Gil-galad was very formidable, and the Númenoreans-in-exile, though diminished relatively speaking, had still more than enough knowledge and lore, as well as the numbers to mount a winning campaign. And of course, Sauron was not Melkor-Morgoth. __________________ Rashbold, Lambengolmo Rómello

12-02-2001, 04:06 PM	#8
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Actually... I no longer subscribe to the idea that the ring merely magnified his [sauron's] innate power. There is quite a compelling argument for the ring having tapped into the Morgoth element in Arda. I'm not well versed in the specefic arguments but, despite the fact that Xander (the crowley-in-middle-earth-guy) is a proponent of this theory, I find it to be quite compelling. For example... sauron doesn't need the ring in his posession. As long as it was in existance, he grew continually stronger. To be sure, when it was in his immediate posession, he gained power faster, but even when it was lost for a milennia, it trickled enough power to him that he would have won in the end had it not been destroyed. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-01-2001, 01:21 PM	#5
Darkside Spirit Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 47	You learn something every day very interesting post Bacchus! I've never really given consideration to more complicated issues like this - since Star Wars is my main love, I just read the book and left it at that.

12-04-2001, 05:00 AM	#9
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	'I have only just begun to wonder about the ring.' Not even the council of Elrond knew what power the ring gave Sauron and how. It was suggested that they dropped it in the sea and left it there. It's possible that not even Sauron knew the full effect of the ring or he would surely have trusted it to come to him?