The Ban - why?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

..er ..Gor - last time i was around: weren't we Banned from discussing this???

We were "banned" from discussing this in the LOTR discussion thread because it was off-topic. You know it as well as I do, BB.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

A better question might be: how would the vision and unfolding of the world have been if Melkor had not caused discord in the music.

Sister Golden Hair recently posed this question in the Eru/Fate thread. I think it applies to the discussion in this thread.

I have been wondering for a while if Men would actually “burn out” faster in Valinor than in Middle Earth. What evidence do we have for this? When Men first reach Beleriand, and came into contact with Valinorean Elves, their life spans actually increased. No doubt most of the reason for this was wisdom gained from the Noldor and Grey Elves. But if living among powerful immortals, in the lands that they have made their own, caused Men to age more quickly, then maybe this increase in knowledge would have been offset in regards to life span.

I believe Sister Golden Hair’s question brings up a better argument though. If Melkor hadn’t put evil in the world, then wouldn’t Middle Earth have been very similar to Valinor. Not exactly the same, of course, but quite possibly equally umm...grand.

Would Men die more quickly in this Middle Earth? Or, maybe Melkor’s marring is the reason that Men would weary early in Valinor and, obviously, this marring wouldn’t exist in an evil-free Middle Earth. I think it is clear that these questions tie into the Ban discussion.

[jammi567]

i'm not sure whether this has been mentened already or not, but i think the Valar put the ban on them because they had some forehand knowledge that they knew Mens lusts would make them want immortality for themselves if they saw what they coud do if they were immortal. Also, it might be almost like gollums and bilbos experiences when they had the Ring for a long time.

[Gordis]

Interesting question, CAB.

It may be a heresy, but I think that without Melkor's discord there would be no place fit for Men to live. All the ME would have been like Valinor. One has to be a Vania Elf to like this at a long run. Even Noldor grew sick of it. And Men were completely unsuitable for a static world.

So, only thanks to Melkor, and later Sauron the World of Men came into being.

By the way, have you noticed that about Vaniar? They are called "wise" but it mostly means "obedient", it seems.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

It may be a heresy, but I think that without Melkor's discord there would be no place fit for Men to live. All the ME would have been like Valinor. One has to be a Vania Elf to like this at a long run. Even Noldor grew sick of it. And Men were completely unsuitable for a static world.

Not necesarily, I think. Valinor got a bit spoilt for attention when the Valar withdrew to it. The whole of Arda had a lot more ground to cover so the 'sparkliness' would have been a lot more spread around and diffused. If they wanted to make the whole of Arda in Valinor's image in the first place, which I personally doubt.

Valinor was primarily meant as a dwelling for the Valar themselves, not for Elves or Men. If you run a hotel you will furnish your rooms according to the wants and needs of your guests, your own personal quarters on the other hand can be as much to your personal taste as you want them to.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by CAB

I have been wondering for a while if Men would actually “burn out” faster in Valinor than in Middle Earth.

No; they would be more protected from the marring of Melkor while in Aman; but the power of the valar can't modify their lifespan.

Originally Posted by CAB

If Melkor hadn’t put evil in the world, then wouldn’t Middle Earth have been very similar to Valinor. Not exactly the same, of course, but quite possibly equally umm...grand.

I agree:

Originally Posted by Of the begining of days, Chapter I, Silmarillion

Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.

There is a more relevant passage about the similarity of Aman with Arda Unmarred, I think in Myths Transformed I believe, I hope I shall find it.

Originally Posted by CAB

Or, maybe Melkor’s marring is the reason that Men would weary early in Valinor and, obviously, this marring wouldn’t exist in an evil-free Middle Earth

Men don't actually wear out more quickly in the blessed realms; they only perceive that their lifespan is less than that of most (if not all) of the other beings there, who age in accordance with the valian time units, not those of the sun.

Originally Posted by jammi567

i think the Valar put the ban on them because they had some forehand knowledge that they knew Mens lusts would make them want immortality for themselves if they saw what they coud do if they were immortal

Much of what Men thought living in Aman would give them was a deceit from Sauron.

Originally Posted by Aman and mortal Men, Myths Transformed, HoME X

No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the Númenóreans they said that they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright'.

Originally Posted by Gordis

It may be a heresy, but I think that without Melkor's discord there would be no place fit for Men to live

Living in a Aman-like Middle-Earth would be unfit for Men only if the "blessing of Aman" (unweariness of the body) was granted to them. In that case, the Man would suffer greatly or would become beast-like. But this "blessing of Aman" was given only to the elves, who had a different kind of hroa and destiny.

Originally Posted by Gordis

By the way, have you noticed that about Vaniar? They are called "wise" but it mostly means "obedient", it seems.

As a side note, Manwe listening to Eru is stated by Tolkien to be more than wisdom.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

By the way, have you noticed that about Vaniar? They are called "wise" but it mostly means "obedient", it seems.

Yes, but I suppose that both descriptions could be accurate in this case. They did manage to avoid most of the trouble (except the War of Wrath) that other Elves and Men found themselves in.