Why didn't Sauron use the Numenorean army?

[Gordis]

Zimraphel/Miriel was 202 years old at the Downfall. Very old for this time period, indeed. She could have lived for 20-30 more years at best, given that women lived longer than men.

But I have had a second thought about the succession. Pharazôn son of Gimilkhâd (Tar-Palantir's younger brother), was Miriel's heir anyway, second in line for the Succession at the time when Tar-Palantir died.
Actually, for Pharazon to get the Sceptre, there was no real necessity to marry his cousin Miriel. He could have made her abdicate in his favour (in favour of her cousin the next heir), as often older sisters did in favour of their younger brothers. And that is what she surely did, when he married her: she is not counted as a XXV ruler of Numenor between Tar-Palantir and Ar-Pharazon, as she would have been, had she ruled even for a day.

But once a Heiress surrenders her right to the Scepter, there is no way back. So, Miriel wouldn't be next in line after Ar-Pharazon, her husband.

Who would? Some descendant of a sibling of Ar-Zimrathon XXI, or Ar-Sakalthôr XXII, or Ar-Gimilzôr XXIII. At least one of those Kings had to have a sibling. Hardly any of their heirs would be among the Faithful, as "faithfulness" is always connected in some way with the Line of Andunie (like haemophilia). But still they would be strong-willed High Numenoreans, descendants of Elros, next to impossible to enslave. That's why Sauron sent all of them with the Fleet to their deaths.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by CAB

I agree with you that Miriel wouldn’t follow Sauron, but I don’t think the people of Numenor would follow her. She had to seem weak after having pushed aside from her rightful place on the throne for some 65 years. She was probably already fairly old by the time of the attack on Valinor too. Also, as you yourself said, she was probably childless. I personally don’t believe that an old, weak (appearing), childless Queen would have been able to control Sauron.

But the people of Numenor would. Remember it wasn't Sauron who made the people of Numenor the elf-hating people they were, it was the King (can't remember which one). I believe that once Sauron's true designs wee exposed then the people of Numenor would feel the same way to him as they did before, and to his teachings. I also think that with a bit of persuasion and mercy Numenor could be convinced to change their ways, much as they did before.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Remember it wasn't Sauron who made the people of Numenor the elf-hating people they were, it was the King (can't remember which one).

IMO, it was the unnecessary Ban to sail West and the denial of immortality that did that to them.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet if the rulers had not spoken openly against it then they would have done nothing.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But the people of Numenor would. Remember it wasn't Sauron who made the people of Numenor the elf-hating people they were, it was the King (can't remember which one). I believe that once Sauron's true designs wee exposed then the people of Numenor would feel the same way to him as they did before, and to his teachings. I also think that with a bit of persuasion and mercy Numenor could be convinced to change their ways, much as they did before.

I can’t agree with the idea that the people of Numenor would so easily or quickly change their ways. The text doesn’t support it. They already had a chance when Tar-Palantir was King.

All the quotes below were written regarding the time of Palantir’s rule.

But no ship came ever again out of the West, because of the insolence of the Kings, and because the hearts of the most part of the Numenoreans were still hardened. -The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales

But his repentance was too late to appease the anger of the Valar with the insolence of his fathers, of which the greater part of his people did not repent. -Akallabeth, The Silmarillion

He (Pharazon) had fared often abroad, as a leader in the wars that the Numenoreans made then in the coastlands of Middle-earth, seeking to extend their dominion over Men... -Akallabeth, The Silmarillion

3175 Repentance of Tar-Palantir. Civil war in Numenor. -Tale of Years, Return of the King

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet that was only one king. It would have taken for than the time of one ruler for the people of Numenor to change as they did. I'm not suggesting that the cahnge would be instantaneous, but I think that there would eventually be a a change.

[Gordis]

I think the Rebellion and Shadow on Numenor was one of the rare examples where Kings were completely of the like mind with the people.

To placate Numenoreans, the Valar had to lift the stupid Ban.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I disagree. Numenoreans wanted immortality, they thought Valinor would give them that. They didn't want beautiful gardens and meadows, they wanted eternal life.

[Landroval]

I second TD; the valar had no right to alter the fate of Men by allowing them to enter Valinor - nor could they. Most Men would live only 100 years more in Aman - afterwards they either leave their hroa through sudden death - or that person becomes a beast dominated by its hroa.

[ecthelion]

IMO, the explanation as to why sending them aginst the valar, is connected with the great themes of Tolkien:
1. Evil defeats itself
2. Always Morgoth (and hence Sauron) chiefly delighted in dividing their chief foes. As Morgoth sew dissention between Feanor and the valar, and then between the ruling Noldor, sauron wanted to forever estrange men from the valar. This, to him, could perhaps be a greater victory even than controlling the world himself.

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by CAB

I can’t agree with the idea that the people of Numenor would so easily or quickly change their ways. The text doesn’t support it. They already had a chance when Tar-Palantir was King.

All the quotes below were written regarding the time of Palantir’s rule.

However, the total destruction of their gigantic fleet might well have swayed the people of Númenor. Sauron had persuaded them to believe that the West would fall easily, or at least that Morgoth was the true power. If king and people noticed that generation after generation of Númenoreans died, without gaining Valinor or immortality, they'd sooner or later begin to question the extent of Sauron and his master's power (some of the reason Sauron may have acted swiftly (rashly?) with Ar-Pharazôn). I don't think he could have kept on coming up with excuses forever; and if the Valar did some PR-markeding...

On the other hand, the corruption may well have had some 'magical' qualities as well, and Sauron might have kept them in line long enough for there to be no turning back. Also, Tolkien doesn't strike me as a big follower of the idea that people ever truly change...

[Landroval]

However, the total destruction of their gigantic fleet might well have swayed the people of Númenor.

Seeing how they resorted to enslaving, torturing, sacrificing people, slaying each other in madness, etc, I tend to think otherwise.

On the other hand, the corruption may well have had some 'magical' qualities as well, and Sauron might have kept them in line long enough for there to be no turning back.

I agree, one of the traits of the one ring is the subjugation of other wills.

Also, Tolkien doesn't strike me as a big follower of the idea that people ever truly change...

Hm, I wouldn't say so; we have great evolutions of characters - the fall of Feanor, the maturing of Bilbo, the rise to 'sanctity' of Frodo, the turning to love of Eowyn, etc.. And if you were reffering to large communities, there are the Men who fled from Morgoth, which represents a good deal of redeeming.

[Alcuin]

I believe I have been able to translate the last entry in Sauron’s personal journal in Númenor. Perhaps that might throw some light on this subject?

Feel free to criticize the translation – it might be a bit loose in some places. Oh, and – take it with a light heart and a grain of salt.

[Falagar]

Fëanor was proud and arrogant already from the start and the Faithful were already faithful before they set sail. Bilbo, Frodo and Eowyn all experience some character-development (especially Frodo), true.

Seeing how they resorted to enslaving, torturing, sacrificing people, slaying each other in madness, etc, I tend to think otherwise.

Did they even get the message that they had lost the "war" before the island was overthrown? Didn't seem like they had much time to get around to a change of heart.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Falagar

However, the total destruction of their gigantic fleet might well have swayed the people of Númenor.

You could be right. At least the remaining Numenoreans wouldn’t be foolish enough to attack Valinor again any time soon after this. But remember that the Numenoreans had been giving the inhabitants of Middle Earth a hard time for many years without any punishment (except for the decline of their lifespan, which it would seem they didn’t attribute to their evil actions, somehow). They probably wouldn’t see the fleet’s destruction as punishment for evil deeds either, but just as a (big) defeat in battle. I would guess that they would go back to oppressing Middle Earth as soon as their strength was sufficient. Also, if the destruction of just the fleet was a good option, I wonder why Eru didn’t do this rather than destroying the entire island.

I am not particularly familiar with the Letters, but I think there is a quote in there stating that with the creation of Numenor and the increasing of it’s inhabitant’s lifespans, the Numenoreans were doomed to fall. So, if they didn’t fall completely during their attack on Valinor, they probably would have fallen again later.

Originally Posted by Falagar

If king and people noticed that generation after generation of Númenoreans died, without gaining Valinor or immortality, they'd sooner or later begin to question the extent of Sauron and his master's power (some of the reason Sauron may have acted swiftly (rashly?) with Ar-Pharazôn). I don't think he could have kept on coming up with excuses forever

I think Gordis’s explanation answers this very well. Pharazon was already impatient, so Sauron had to act at that point and not later. Also, with pretty much every strong, male Numenorean going to attack Valinor (to Sauron meaning: dead) the remaining people would have been much easier for him to control. If he set himself up as king, he wouldn’t have to worry about facing the wrath of future Numenorean kings.

[Landroval]

I am not particularly familiar with the Letters, but I think there is a quote in there stating that with the creation of Numenor and the increasing of it’s inhabitant’s lifespans, the Numenoreans were doomed to fall. So, if they didn’t fall completely during their attack on Valinor, they probably would have fallen again later.

I am not sure if this is what you mean, but in letter #131, he states that "reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!" in regard to the numenoreans. In the UT, it is said that the istari were sent to amend the errors of old of the valar - I would count this among them. Also, in the preface the unfinished New Shadow Chris makes refference to letter #256 - "Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good". This satiety is probably directly proportionate to how good you are doing .

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I believe I have been able to translate the last entry in Sauron’s personal journal in Númenor. Perhaps that might throw some light on this subject?

Really nice! (I would only like to say that in refference to the size of the numenorean armada, Tolkien did state in letter #131 that it was "the greatest of all armadas".)

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I am not sure if this is what you mean, but in letter #131, he states that "reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!" in regard to the numenoreans.

I’m not completely sure, but I think the quote I was thinking of is in the same letter, just below the quote you gave. Rereading it just now though, I think I misinterpreted it the first time. It doesn’t seem to say that their fall was inevitable, just likely.

[Attalus]

I think that Sauron believed that he could destroy all of the Numenoreans, and did not forsee that Eru would preserve Elendil and the rest to found the kingdoms in Middle-earth that would eventually play a large part in destroying him. Another example of "Oft Evil will shall Evil mar!"

[jammi567]

or (like it states above somewhere) that he thought he could distroy the faithful peple, as well as the women and children left on the island, in his own time, and didn't realise that Eru would issue the punishment so quickly, or in such a devistating maner.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I would only like to say that in refference to the size of the numenorean armada, Tolkien did state in letter #131 that it was "the greatest of all armadas".

Thank you, Landroval. I shall update the footnote.