Relationship Powers and Men

[Landroval]

[EDIT:This thread has been split off from the 'Why have Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship'.]

ME dwellers expendability

Hrm, I wonder what brought that idea to you - the valar clearly recognize the children of Eru as being the culmination of Creation.

to serve the "common goods" as THEY understand them

That common good is pretty large, as stated in Osanwe kenta: "to retain all his subjects in the allegiance of Eru, or to bring them back to it, and in that allegiance to leave them free"

because all human's feelings are alien to him

I disagree:

Originally Posted by The Istari, Unfinished Tales

clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt

Could you bring a couple of examples of his "selflessness"? Aside from Moria's incident.

For one, it was him who propose the would be suicide attack on Mordor, in which he would be a chief bait.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Yes, he is Demiurg of unique-class: the creator of realities, but nothing like some kind of stylized Santa.
He is not human - a spirit in human form, sent by the High order, and therefore his idea about ME dwellers expendability is quite in tune with those who sent him:to serve the "common goods" as THEY understand them. Gandalf is brilliant, shrewd and scary person, because all human's feelings are alien to him, he can fegn love and affection to manipulate person, but in reality he has none.
Absolutely all his actions were deliberate and had a double bottom, but when time comes to lay down on sacrificion table his own life in the name of the quest, he does it like a true soldier (or android), without hesitation, just the same way as he sends on sure death, without any remorse and wavering, people who love and trust in him.

Could you bring a couple of examples of his "selflessness"? Aside from Moria's incident.

Wow, that's a tough standard there, Olmert, and one that I think doesn't bear out under a close look. First, as I read the Simarillion, the Maia did have emotions which I suppose one must call Maiin [sic] rather than human but to me are essentially the same emotions. Second, in real life here in regular earth, as you yourself acknowledge in the above, true soldiers lay down their lives without hesitation for their compatriots commonly. So what is so hard to accept about Gandalf being a true soldier, too. Finally, the very act of a demigod accepting incarnation in a frail and finite human body is an act of sacrifice. Heck, I'm not even Christian and I get that!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And I believe, Gandalf's did have foresight about their future role in the quest, at least a strong feeling that they were needed.

Of course he knew! He was present at the songs of Ainur, he saw the possibility of outcome (and I 'm sure it was given not only one, but a few, since Melkor's theme also has been weaved in the song), and went out of the skin to engineer events by manipulations, intimidations, lies and false promises in the direction of more favorable to Valar result .

Originally Posted by Gordis

He foresaw that Gollum was vital to the quest, and some of Gandalf's words make us think that he knew what for and when he will be needed.

If Gandalf foresaw Gollum's vitality to the quest, then imprisoned Gollum would be as good as dead. He neded to be free and he needed to be tipped off in which direction the Ringbearer will proceed . And sure enough, the liberated wretched creature went straight to Moria - Gandalf's original course of the Fellowship!! So Legoas "tiding" to Elrond was to report that the order has been carried out.

Originally Posted by Landroval

...the valar clearly recognize the children of Eru as being the culmination of Creation.

And then what? Forgot about them for milleniums uncounted and in confusion hunted them as beasts ? And only when they found that Melkor paid a close attention to the Children of Illuvatar and many of them are leaning toward loyalty to Melkor and serving Melkor, the Valar found out that they also desired a fellowship of the unrefined Quendi, in another words, they needed servants too.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

...the Maia did have emotions which I suppose one must call Maiin rather than human but to me are essentially the same emotions

If some Maiar have emotions then all Maiar have emotions, since they made from one matter, so Ungoliant, Balrogs and Sauron have the same emotions and vulnerabilities as Gandalf.

[Landroval]

Forgot about them for milleniums uncounted

Where is it stated that it took the valar thousands of years to discover the elves after their awakening? And concerning the Men, they came to Middle Earth about 400 years after their awakening, cf Finrod's debate.

and in confusion hunted them as beasts ?

Where did you find such a statement?

And only when they found that Melkor paid a close attention to the Children of Illuvatar and many of them are leaning toward loyalty to Melkor and serving Melkor, the Valar found out that they also desired a fellowship of the unrefined Quendi, in another words, they needed servants too.

As far as I know, only the Men leaned towards Melkor, but that happened a long time after the coming of the elves to Valinor. And all the time they looked forward to the coming of each race, and did their best to protect them.

He was present at the songs of Ainur, he saw the possibility of outcome

Yet the Istari have to learn much from slow experience, as even the memory of Valinor is a vision from afar off. And since hobbits are a branch of Men, their fate is pretty much beyond the music of the Ainur, cf the Ainulindale, SIlmarillion; if there was a hint in the music about them, Saruman or Sauron wouldn't be so indiferent about them for such a long time.

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by Landroval

And concerning the Men, they came to Middle Earth about 400 years after their awakening, cf Finrod's debate.

If you are referring to Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (published in HoMe X: Morgoth’s Ring): in it, the Awakening of Men is moved back in time. Tolkien seems to have placed the event around the time of the Great March or the Sack of Utumno. And you probably meant Beleriand instead of Middle-earth.

[Landroval]

Beleriand indeed; I doubt that Tolkien truly moved back in time the coming of Men, after all, he did keep the chronology of the years of the sun, which would logically point to the Silmarillion idea that the children awoke at the first rising of the sun. As Christopher notes: "It was of course fundamental to the whole conception of the Elder Days that Men awoke in the East at the first Sunrise, and that they had existed for no more than a few hundred years when Finrod Felagund came upon Beor and his people in the foothills of the Blue Mountains."

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Olmer

If some Maiar have emotions then all Maiar have emotions, since they made from one matter, so Ungoliant, Balrogs and Sauron have the same emotions and vulnerabilities as Gandalf.

That's like saying all humans have the same emotions. Well, on a certain level, perhaps, but Hitler is not equal to Churchill nor is Ungoliant to Gandalf.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

That's like saying all humans have the same emotions. Well, on a certain level, perhaps, but Hitler is not equal to Churchill nor is Ungoliant to Gandalf.

That’s like saying: Do Blacks have intelligence, and if “yes”, then why you think so?
All humans have the same emotions, only some of these emotions in some people more profound, while in others more suppressed. And Hitler's unequality to Churchill depends of which side you are taken. For German population of 1940 he was a man, who brought his country from the deep afrer World War I depression up to the economically stabilized thriving fatherland.
So all humans are equal on mother-earth.
But if we are talking abut creation of Valar, then we have a dilemma: or we have to give a recognition of capability to have all equal to human’s emotions to all creations of the Fair side and the Dark side (Ungoliant and Balrogs included), or we have to accept the notion that none of them are capable to have any feeling.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Where is it stated that it took the valar thousands of years to discover the elves after their awakening?

Shall we count? Let us see…The Elves were born in 1050 of the Time of the Trees and have been discovered approximately at 1085 by The Great Hunter- Orome. According to the Reconing of the Time one Valar’s Year of the Tree is equal to 9.582 Sun Years.
So, this 35 valar’s years of Valar's indifference to ME amounted for a pretty leighty time by Eldar’s counting .No wonder that Melcor managed to build up a stronghold, to breed a new creatures and corrupt the elves “…and though the Valar for long time knew nothing of it.” (Morgoth’s Ring.“ Annanl of Aman”)

Originally Posted by Landroval

Where did you find such a statement?

It says that “all beasts..dwell on the grassy plains… or walked in the shadow of the woods.” So the ME has been inhabited not only with creation of Melkor .Also for the time being , besides Quendi, it was already a lot of corrupted by Morgoth elves who were lurking in the shadows amongs other good beasts and fell beasts. “Therefore in form they were like unto the Children of Iluvatar, yet foul to look upon; for they were made in hatred, and with hatred they were filled“ (The War of Jewels). Now,how close you can come to your prey for a successful kill if you hunting “with spear and bow” ? Of course you are not coming at arm distance to get a closer look.
Hence, seems to me Orome was hunting everything what moves in the shadows of the woods.
Besides, as strange, as it sounds, he had no idea of whatever he is hunting might be a creature with intellect. For him it was “a kill” pursued to the death.
So it does not matter how the Wise tried to intrpret the ancient songs of the elves for Valar’s benefit, originally these tales were not so far from the truth: the Hunter was hunting the elves.

[Landroval]

Quote:
So, this 35 valar’s years of Valar's indifference to ME amounted for a pretty leighty time by Eldar’s counting

Less than four centuries is not the same as countless millenia ...

As stated in Of the coming of the elves, Yavanna and Orome often visited the forests of ME. If the valar truly forgot about the Children, why does she say "and within this age our hope shall be revealed"? Why is Tulkas so eager to go to war to protect the elves, and why does Varda make the stars? Pure boredom? I doubt it . Also, after Orome finds them, it is said: "thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited".
Quote:
Of course you are not coming at arm distance to get a closer look.

Yet we are talking about a vala; and since he is the greatest hunter, I doubt that there is anyone with better perceptions than him.
Quote:
Hence, seems to me Orome was hunting everything what moves in the shadows of the woods

I find that hard to believe, since he _trained_ his hosts against the "evil creatures of Melkor"; his love of animals is evident in his nickname "tamer of beasts" (animals who were a part of his host).

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Less than four centuries is not the same as countless millenia ...

And also is not the same as couple of years. It was enough time for Quendi to develop a language, for goodness sake!

If the valar truly forgot about the Children, why does she say "and within this age our hope shall be revealed"?

If they really so eagerly waited for Elves to come, then how come that an uneager Melkor was more watchful and did not miss even by day the elves awakening ?

Why is Tulkas so eager to go to war to protect the elves...

I think in real life you can found many Tulkas counterparts, the berserks who would be happy at perspective of any brawl, just give a reason for it..

... and why does Varda make the stars? Pure boredom?

That was not her idea. Manwe was afraid that his brother influence will undermine his authority “Shall they call Melkor lord while Manwe sits upon Taniquetil?” (''The Silmarillion”), so he asked his wife to make kind like presentation on behalf of Valar, which would constantly remaind the elves how thoughtfull and generous the gods can be.

Yet we are talking about a vala; and since he is the greatest hunter, I doubt that there is anyone with better perceptions than him.
...since he _trained_ his hosts against the "evil creatures of Melkor"; his love of animals is evident...

Vala with a “better perception” should not hunt at all. By what criterias you can sort out the “evil” beasts ?
Buffalos are looking quite evil, but they eat grass, at the same time a cute cat, in size of little bigger than dog, could tear you to pieces and then dine on you.
Which one were labeled evil because created by the enemy, which one were evil by nature, and , since on ME we have precedents of talking trees and animals and birds, how you can be sure that you are not hunting a creature with an intellect equal to your own, who from his point of view sees you as an ogly repulsive killer and tries to hide in the dark?
(For better idea I would recommend to read “From the Buick8” by Stephen King )
Any way, if you call yourself an animal lover, your love should be extended on all beasts, otherwise all Orome’s pretense to be a nature-loving forest ranger is just a hypocrisy.

[Landroval]

And also is not the same as couple of years.

So you were basically playing around with labels as you saw fit.

If they really so eagerly waited for Elves to come, then how come that an uneager Melkor was more watchful and did not miss even by day the elves awakening ?

Why? I could say that it was ultimately Eru's will, since it was doomed that the elves would come in darkness.

And who says uneager Melkor? Unlike the valar, he was more than willing to rule the Eruhini.

I think in real life you can found many Tulkas counterparts, the berserks who would be happy at perspective of any brawl, just give a reason for it

I doubt that Tulkas' description as "slow to wrath" could fit into your claim.

By what criterias you can sort out the “evil” beasts ?

He could have seen them as evil from the Ainulindale, as a direct result of Melkor's alteration; or he could see Melkor's taint in them; or he could just judge them as evil by their behaviour; make your pick.

That was not her idea. Manwe was afraid that his brother influence will undermine his authority “Shall they call Melkor lord while Manwe sits upon Taniquetil?” (''The Silmarillion”), so he asked his wife to make kind like presentation on behalf of Valar, which would constantly remaind the elves how thoughtfull and generous the gods can be.

Can we also state Manwe's mandate?

Originally Posted by Osanwe kenta

The office of the Elder King was to retain all his subjects in the allegiance of Eru, or to bring them back to it, and in that allegiance to leave them free.

Now that does put things into a bit of a perspective, does it..

Any way, if you call yourself an animal lover, your love should be extended on all beasts, otherwise all Orome’s pretense to be a nature-loving forest ranger is just a hypocrisy.

By your reasoning, the valar shouldn't oppose Melkor at all, since his essence was a part of Ea and they loved Ea .