Why didn't Sauron use the Numenorean army?

[Ellf]

Mere hatred... Mere hatred... If I'm going down then you're coming with me sort of thinking if you will. Sauron was a great student of Morgoth. Morgoth wanted to ursup Iluvatar's power. He hated the love Iluvatar bore to his creation (Arda, elves, men). Morgoth passed on this hatred to his best student "Sauron".

And a little revenge...

Also, don't forget Sauron left his armies back at home, who were not afraid of Middle Earth's inhabitants. As soon as he got back home, he had an instant black army. His army fled and was not destroyed by Ar-Pharazon. His armies were afraid of the numerous (and mighty) Numenoreans. Don't forget Numenoreans were a blood mixture of elves and men. The Numenoreans were direct decendents of the only two people on Arda that (at that moment in time) punked him (Luthien and Beren). Eonwe had also punked him but he doesn't count as a person.

[Ellf]

Originally Posted by CAB

Towards the end of the Second Age, the Numenoreans had become a very formidable military force. When Ar Pharazon confronted Sauron, Sauron’s own servants deserted him and he was taken as a prisoner to Numenor. After a few years Sauron gained control of Pharazon and through him the Numenorean military. My question is: Why didn’t Sauron use this army against his enemies in Middle Earth, primarily the Elves and Faithful Numenoreans? The Numenoreans in Ar Pharazon’s time surely could have destroyed or enslaved them. Instead, Sauron willingly destroyed his new forces by sending them against the Valar. He knew quite well that this would be their end. Why would he do this?

Please read Post #41

[Alcuin]

Tolkien states Sauron’s motives explicitly in Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”, “Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion”:

…Sauron‘s whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans, [but] this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn, for humiliation. Sauron … would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.

Note that in Letter 156, he writes,

“The Valar ... were not allowed to destroy [Men], or coerce them with any ‘divine’ display of the powers they held over the physical world.”

I believe part of Sauron’s plan was to draw the Valar and Maiar themselves into rebellion against Eru by inducing them to kill the Númenóreans when they attacked Valinor.

-|-

Originally Posted by Ellf

Don't forget Numenoreans were a blood mixture of elves and men.

In Númenor, only the descendents of Elros were “a blood mixture of elves and men.” The Númenóreans were Dúnedain: “West Edain,” the descendents of the those survivors of the Three Houses of Men allied to the Eldar in their wars against Morgoth in Beleriand who traveled to the island of Elenna, which they called Anadûnê or “Westernesse.”

It was not “mere hatred” that drove Sauron. In Morgoth’s Ring, Tolkien states that Morgoth was a “nihilist”: that is, he wanted the destruction of all Arda:

…when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, by other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence… His sole ultimate object was their destruction. …if he had been victorious, he would have ultimately destroyed his own ‘creatures’ … when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.

Of Sauron, Tolkien wrote,

Sauron never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it.

[Ellf]

Alcuin,
Was not Sauron also humiliated by Luthien and Huan?

You mean to say the destruction of Arda wouldn't ultimately destroy it's inhabitants?

You mean to say destruction is not driven by Hatred? Please read the whole first paragraph of Post 41 again, not just one word. Try to understand the whole context.

I came up with my response all on my own. From my own reading and comprehension. Not bad for someone who's never read Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed".

[Alcuin]

Was not Sauron also humiliated by Luthien and Huan?

They were no longer within proximity: he could not punish or humiliate them in any way. Upon Ar-Pharazôn, however, he could avenge himself. Sauron was nothing if not practically-minded, at least over the intermediate run. And the Númenóreans were not a “mixture of elves and men.” They were not all descendents of Lúthien and Beren: in Númenor, only the descendents of Elros were also descendents of Lúthien and Beren.

You mean to say the destruction of Arda wouldn't ultimately destroy it's inhabitants?

Sauron wasn’t trying to destroy Arda. Morgoth was trying to destroy Arda. Sauron wanted to rule Arda.

You mean to say destruction is not driven by Hatred? Please read the whole first paragraph of Post 41 again, not just one word. Try to understand the whole context.

Ok, I read it again, and I think I understand your position. Your post is not accurate. In the first paragraph, Sauron was not consumed by hatred for the Númenóreans in the sense that he wanted them all killed. He was perfectly happy with live Númenóreans so long as he ruled them, and in fact he did rule the Black Númenóreans directly or indirectly until until his own demise at the end of the War of the Ring. He wanted Ar-Pharazôn destroyed because Ar-Pharazôn had humiliated him, and if he could induce the Valar to rebel against Eru by enticing them into destroying Ar-Pharazôn’s invasion force, all the better.

Sauron was not out to destroy the world the way Morgoth was. At one point, Tolkien even described Sauron as a “reformer”: in Letter 153 of The Letters of JRR Tolkien, he wrote,

…at the beginning of the Second Age [Sauron] … was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all ‘reformers’ who want to hurry up with ‘reconstruction’ and ‘reorganization’ are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up.

To paraphrase, that means Sauron believed he knew better than everyone else, and so thought he ought to be in charge, with everyone else doing things his way. If you look around you in the real world, you’ll see “Saurons” in the newspapers and on television – maybe even in school – who want to “hurry up and reform everything,” and who believe that nobody else can do this but them. They don’t want to destroy whatever they want to reform: they want to remake it in their own image, and to suit their own purposes.

I came up with my response all on my own. From my own reading and comprehension.

Yes, I think I can clearly see that.

Not bad for someone who's never read Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed".

No, not bad. Not bad at all. But it’s not correct in the sense that it does not reflect Tolkien’s subcreation. I’m not attacking you or belittling you: it’s not a bad understanding at all. It’s just not a well-informed understanding.

We come to these forums to learn. Okay, and to show off a little. But if it’s a choice between learning and showing off, choose the learning every time. Showing off can get you embarrassed. (Which is better than what happens in the real world: “Hey, ya’ll! Watch this!” or “Look, Ma! No hands!”) You now know about Morgoth’s Ring. If you’re interested in Tolkien, really interested, go take a look at it. Get a copy from the library, read it, or at least those sections that appeal to you, and tell us what you think about it. You might enjoy reading the part about what motivated Morgoth and Sauron: Morgoth was functional, but ultimately he was way beyond homicidal and possibly insane: his purpose was to destroy whatever anyone and everyone else made. There really are people like this in the real world: you may not have met one yet, or realized that you’ve met one, but you will. Sauron wanted to be in charge. He was ok with Arda: he wanted to rule it: he wanted it for his own. There are people like that, too, and you probably have met and recognized them. (Most people have had their first experience with a selfish “Sauron” by age 5.)

That’s my response. You can take it or leave it; but before you fire off an angry answer, just think about it for a couple of hours.

And find yourself a copy of Morgoth’s Ring. You might like it.

[Landroval]

Alcuin made some excellent points, as usual. I would only like to point out that Myths Transformed is one of the most controversial Tolkien texts in existence. Chris himself has called it "a fearful weapon against his own creation", due to its drastic revision of the entire creation. If there was a quote in Silmarillion which would challenge the MT on the case in question, I would say it is this one, which pretty much equates the path of Sauron with the one of Melkor:

Originally Posted by Of the Maiar, Silmarillion

But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

[Ellf]

Alcuin,
I am not angry, and I hope my initial response was not interpreted that way. Maybe a little sarcastic, but in no way angry. I did discover a new thing which you mentioned twice. That not all Numenoreans were descended from Elros. Quite interestingly enough I haven't read the Silmarillion in a few years. I understand your point about Morgoth's intentions vs. Sauron's and I will not give in so easy to any thought. I know my web name is Ellf (which happen to be my initials), but I'm more of a Dwarf if you may (a little stiff necked). So I must say that I will look a little more into it, because I do believe and remember reading in the Sil. that Morgoth wanted the domination of Arda. Now, whether Tolkien wrote this and disagreed with his thoughts later (which I'm finding more and more often), I will find out. This is a thread based upon the Sil. is it not.

Now, regarding ethnic cleansing, I do believe that Sauron had hatred in his heart to murder people and sacrafice them to Morgoth. Also if Tolkien claims Morgoth was a "nihilist" wouldn't his best disciple be one also? Well any how I will look into this a little further, because I do remember reading in the Sil. that Sauron was very similar to his Master.

By the way, why didn't Morgoth destroy the Simarils? Why didn't he destroy Luthien when she was in his presence? Hmmmm?

Sorry for the sarcasim.

[Ellf]

Landroval,
Thank you, you found the passage I was going to begin to look for tonight.
Ellf

[jammi567]

i think Sauron did want to distroy the free peoples of Middle Earth by the end of the Third age, but that was only to regain his one Ring, so that he could control them. Certainly in the early part of the second age, he wanted to corrupt the elves, hense the 20 Rings of Power. And you're correct in saying that Morgoth did want total domination of all of Beleriand. I mean, look at what he did at Nirnaeth Arnoediad and beyond.

"This is consistent with what we know of Sauron's character - he always prefers to work from behind the scenes, manipulating events to his favour. On the rare occasions where he goes into battle himself, he is always defeated. This perhaps helps to explain his decision in the later Second Age not to offer battle to the armies of Númenor."

Encyclopedia of Arda.

[Alcuin]

No problem, Ellf. Sarcasm welcome – I have been accused of overusing it myself. So we have some common ground upon which maneuver.

Morgoth lusted after the Silmarils. Lust is very different from love, and even very different from what we English-speakers called like in the sense of preference. Tolkien’s friend C.S. Lewis wrote a little book, The Four Loves, that explores this difference in its early going; I am reading it now myself. Lust will last a while, but once it is sated, it goes cold, and he who lusted only a brief while ago will have nothing to do with the object for which he lusted once his desire has been satisfied. In the end, Morgoth would have destroyed not only the Silmarils, but all of Arda; but in the meantime, he had the objects that all the Powers of Arda and all the Eldar of Arda sought to possess for different reasons. He had no problem killing the Two Trees whose light was enmeshed in the Silmarils, nor in feeding Ungoliant the bright gems of Fëanor’s hoard until she swelled to monstrous size and able to threaten him. (Surely Ungoliant is also a fallen Maia, but not in the train of Morgoth, although to satisfy her own lusts she cooperated with him for a while.) The fate of Arda, said the Valar, was tied to the Three Jewels, and no doubt Morgoth was aware of this, too: as long as he held them, to some degree, he held the rest of Arda in thrall, and that give him power, for which he also lusted.

Morgoth had every intention of using – or abusing – Lúthien for his own nefarious purposes. It amused his evil disposition to let her run free in his throne room for a while: after all, she was in his power, in the very heart of his realm: how could she ever hope to escape? But in the end, she did – and with Beren, she wrested one of the Silmarils from Morgoth’s crown. Morgoth’s desire for Lúthien was lust, and worse: he had tried ages before to ravish the Maia Arien, who later led the Sun in its passage across the sky of Arda. Morgoth no doubt had very foul intentions for Lúthien. He was far from done with her: he had not even begun.

Perhaps in the end, had he been permitted to continue long enough in his path of evil, Sauron might have become the very kind of nihilist that Morgoth was. Although that is not the inference ones draws from Tolkien’s material, I don’t believe it can be altogether dismissed. Again, it is not an inference I would draw from his detailed explanations, but it is one you have drawn from the materials you have already read.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Perhaps in the end, had he been permitted to continue long enough in his path of evil, Sauron might have become the very kind of nihilist that Morgoth was. Although that is not the inference ones draws from Tolkien’s material, I don’t believe it can be altogether dismissed. Again, it is not an inference I would draw from his detailed explanations, but it is one you have drawn from the materials you have already read.

Do you call around 6000 years without Morgoth being his boss not enough time?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by jammi567

Do you call around 6000 years without Morgoth being his boss not enough time?

No, it was not. His first lust was never satisfied: he never ruled Arda.

But I believe you misunderstood me, jammi567. My position is

Originally Posted by Alcuin

[That] Sauron might have become the very kind of nihilist that Morgoth was ... is not an inference I would draw from [Tolkien’s] detailed explanations...

[jammi567]

So i can understand what you're saying, what does nihilist mean?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by jammi567

So i can understand what you're saying, what does nihilist mean?

I used the Free Dictionary at refdesk.com to get a reasonable start on a definition of nihilist. You might also want to check the Wikipedia definition of nihilism. All the same, I am not certain that Tolkien is using that in the defined sense of the word, but more as a connotation indicating that Morgoth ultimately sought the destruction of everything that was not of himself. But even in the strictist definition of nihilism, Morgoth was in a state of incredible self-delusion: he was also a strictly defined nihilist, in that he rejected all truth. He had intimate and direct knowledge of Eru, the One, his Creator, and yet denied Eru’s primacy and authority, and sought to usurp these to himself.

The phrase “doesn’t play well with others” does not even begin to describe Melkor/Morgoth. In several instances, Tolkien refers to him as “the Diabolus.”

[jammi567]

I couldn't agree more.