High Kings of the Noldor - Page 4

Lefty Scaevola · 10-18-2002, 09:09 PM

Angrod and Aegenor both were Killed in The battle of the Sudden Flame. Firod was killed some years later during Beren's quest. Since neither Celebrindal nor Galadriel got a throne (Even in Lorien she did not get the tile of queen) it seems that females were usually excluded from the throne.

the real findorfin · 10-19-2002, 04:33 AM

Thanks Guys!

I really wish I had the Home series, gotta get it soon.

Yeh, Orodreth's claim makes sense now. It is the general theory that Gil-Galad escaped the ruin of NArgothornd and fled to the Havens?

Similar to Elwing fleeing Menegroth.

Lefty Scaevola · 10-19-2002, 11:48 AM

He was sent there by his father some years before the fall of nargothrond. It may have been for safety, but that would have been a goof, since the havens fell before Nargothrond. Likely there was a educational reason, Oredreth may have sent him to Aqquire shipbuilding technology. Gil-Galad was half Sindar, so perhaps he was also some sort of junior ambassador.

Maedhros · 10-22-2002, 01:01 AM

Coming to the subject of the thread, I have to agree with Tar-Elenion.
FÃ«anor was not the High King of the Noldor, he claimed the Kingship and did Fingolfin, after his death the matter was settled by Maedhros who waived his right to the kingship not the kingship itself to Fingolfin.
Also in the Shibboleth of FÃ«anor, it states that Fingolfin claimed the Kingship after the death of FinwÃ«.

Lefty Scaevola · 01-11-2006, 10:59 PM

I have another theory on Gildor. During the War of the Great Jewels there were likely young Noldor orphaned, and some such orphans may have become wards of the Kings, raised in their households, even as we have seen other examples of this, like Turin being a fosterson to Thingol. Perhaps Gildor was an original exile or child therof, a younster, orpahned by war or other casualty (like crossing the Helecarxe) and was made a fosterling by Finrod. He would not be a heir to the throne, but would perhaps call himself of Finrods house.

Cerebus · 02-20-2006, 12:49 PM

Where does Maglor get lost in all of this though? If I remember correctly, after the War of Wrath he's just wondering around the coasts of ME and we never hear from him again. Since I haven't read the HOME series I don't know of any further explanation. But, technically wouldn't he have some sort of claim to the High Kingship?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-20-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerebus

Where does Maglor get lost in all of this though? If I remember correctly, after the War of Wrath he's just wondering around the coasts of ME and we never hear from him again. Since I haven't read the HOME series I don't know of any further explanation. But, technically wouldn't he have some sort of claim to the High Kingship?

I don't believe so. After Finwe's death, Feanor claimed kingship over the Noldor, but after his death, Meadhros passed the kingship over to the second house of Finwe, which was Fingolfin. So the High Kingship in Beleriand consisted of: Fingolfin, Fingon, and Turgon. When this house was killed off and there were no longer any heirs, it would pass to the third house of Finwe. Finarfin of course did not come to Beleriand in the Exile. Finarfin's sons had all died before Turgon, so at that point, the heir to the throne would be Gil-galad who was last High King.

CrazySquirrel · 02-20-2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerebus

Where does Maglor get lost in all of this though? If I remember correctly, after the War of Wrath he's just wondering around the coasts of ME and we never hear from him again. Since I haven't read the HOME series I don't know of any further explanation. But, technically wouldn't he have some sort of claim to the High Kingship?

Hi, Cerebus,
Welcome to the Moot!

Right, as far as I know, Maglor is still somewhere around. I don't remember anything from HOME about his fate (though I haven't read all the 12 volumes).

His claim would have been very strong, had his older brother not abdicated for all their house... I don't think there is a way back on it.

Lady Marion Magdalena · 02-20-2006, 02:34 PM

Unless the heir from one of the other houses formally abdicated and handed authority back to the house of Feanor.

Cerebus · 02-20-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Hi, Cerebus,
Welcome to the Moot!

Right, as far as I know, Maglor is still somewhere around. I don't remember anything from HOME about his fate (though I haven't read all the 12 volumes).

His claim would have been very strong, had his older brother not abdicated for all their house... I don't think there is a way back on it.

I didn't realize that Maedhros abdicated for their entire house. However, if he did, I thought that since he died his relinquishing of the high kingship could possibly be null and void, leaving Maglor to contest it if he so wished. I don't have the texts in front of me right now though, so I might not be recalling some specific phrasing which would negate what I am saying.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-20-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerebus

I didn't realize that Maedhros abdicated for their entire house. However, if he did, I thought that since he died his relinquishing of the high kingship could possibly be null and void, leaving Maglor to contest it if he so wished. I don't have the texts in front of me right now though, so I might not be recalling some specific phrasing which would negate what I am saying.

After Feanor's death, Meadhros was the eldest of the line of the first house. I would think that that in itself would not undo his decision to turn the kingship over to the line of Fingolfin. Once Fingolfin was king, the kingship would have passed down to his sons and then to theirs had they had any. Since Fingon had no children and Turgon had no sons, the kingship would move to the third house, being Finarfin's children.

CrazySquirrel · 02-20-2006, 03:09 PM

Here is the quote you sought:

Quote:

By this deed [saving Maerhros] Fingon won great renown, and all the Noldor praised him; and the hatred between the houses of Fingolfin and FÃ«anor was assuaged. For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: 'If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of FinwÃ«, and not the least wise.' But to this his brothers did not all in their hearts agree. Therefore even as Mandos foretold the House of FÃ«anor were called the Dispossessed, because the over-lordship passed from it, the elder, to the house of Fingolfin, both in ElendÃ« and in Beleriand, and because also of the loss of the Silmarils.

So Maedhros waived HIS claim only and some of his brothers disagreed. I believe Maglor was not one of them, more likely it were the baddies: Celegorm and Curufin.
Anyway, Maglor was the only one to outlive Maedhros.

Cerebus · 02-20-2006, 03:12 PM

I understand why the kingship went to the house of Finarfin, however what I'm saying is that after Maedhros' death Maglor could have contested Gil-Galad's claim to the high kingship because he was now the only surviving heir to the house of Feanor and therefore could rescind Maedhros' decision as the head of that house.

Edit: Granted, I'm not saying that Maglor would have wanted to contest Gil-Galad's claim, but that the possibility existed for him to do so. So really, this is all just semantics because Maglor was so guilt stricken that he couldn't even associate with other elves anyway, let alone try to lead the Noldorin remnant.

CrazySquirrel · 02-20-2006, 03:27 PM

Wow, how could I forget?

It DID happen, as far as I remember, but not with Maglor!
It happened in Hollin, in the Second Age. Gil-Galad was the High King, but Celebrimbor, lord of Eregion, was Curufin's son, of the house of Feanor. I don't remember if he actually contested Gil-Galad's High kinship, but sure he didn't hearken to his advice (re:Annatar) and was very independant.
The Mirdain asked Galadriel and Celeborn who tried to lord it over them, to go pack.

Cerebus · 02-20-2006, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Wow, how could I forget?

It DID happen, as far as I remember, but not with Maglor!
It happened in Hollin, in the Second Age. Gil-Galad was the High King, but Celebrimbor, lord of Eregion, was Curufin's son, of the house of Feanor. I don't remember if he actually contested Gil-Galad's High kinship, but sure he didn't hearken to his advice (re:Annatar) and was very independant.
The Mirdain asked Galadriel and Celeborn who tried to lord it over them, to go pack.

Excellent point! I didn't even think of that. Is there any indication in the HOME series that would lend credence to Celebrimbor challenging Gil-Galad's right to the High Kingship?

CrazySquirrel · 02-20-2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft. So great became his hold on the MÃ*rdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dÃ»m to LÃ³rinand, taking with her Amroth and CelebrÃ*an; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In LÃ³rinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron. - UT

It is not said that Celebrimbor challenged Gil-Galad specifically. But he revolted against his own Lord and Lady, so it must be regarded as a revolt against the High King as well.

Also Celegorm and Curufin revolted against Orodreth in Nargothrond...

Cerebus · 02-20-2006, 05:22 PM

I suppose my original question is answered then. All I was looking for was a precedent (basically) for someone of the house of Feanor trying to reassert himself as High King, because as supposed to the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, Feanor and his sons were 100% Noldorin and I thought that their pure descent (so to speak) should have held more weight.

On another note however... It's generally thought (or at least I've been told) that Elrond could never claim the High kingship because his Noldorin descent was from Idril (a female). However in Doriath, the Sindar don't seem to have any qualms about Dior (descended from Thingol through his daughter Luthien) inheriting the High Kingship of Beleriand despite not coming directly from a male heir. Were these differences just cultural or what?

10-18-2002, 09:09 PM	#61
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Angrod and Aegenor both were Killed in The battle of the Sudden Flame. Firod was killed some years later during Beren's quest. Since neither Celebrindal nor Galadriel got a throne (Even in Lorien she did not get the tile of queen) it seems that females were usually excluded from the throne. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

10-22-2002, 01:01 AM	#64
Maedhros The Tall Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 578	Coming to the subject of the thread, I have to agree with Tar-Elenion. FÃ«anor was not the High King of the Noldor, he claimed the Kingship and did Fingolfin, after his death the matter was settled by Maedhros who waived his right to the kingship not the kingship itself to Fingolfin. Also in the Shibboleth of FÃ«anor, it states that Fingolfin claimed the Kingship after the death of FinwÃ«. __________________ â€œWhat does the term american refers toâ€ asked the boy, and the wise man answered: â€œLets look at the dictionary then.â€ As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, â€œWhat is America then?â€, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the AÂ·merÂ·iÂ·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, â€œDoes the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?â€ The wise man replied: â€œWhat do you think?â€, and the boy answered: â€œIt is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,â€ the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, â€œAm I right?â€, and he replied: â€œBut of course.â€ The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.

01-11-2006, 10:59 PM	#65
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	I have another theory on Gildor. During the War of the Great Jewels there were likely young Noldor orphaned, and some such orphans may have become wards of the Kings, raised in their households, even as we have seen other examples of this, like Turin being a fosterson to Thingol. Perhaps Gildor was an original exile or child therof, a younster, orpahned by war or other casualty (like crossing the Helecarxe) and was made a fosterling by Finrod. He would not be a heir to the throne, but would perhaps call himself of Finrods house. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

02-20-2006, 02:34 PM	#69
Lady Marion Magdalena Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a Field of Giant Daisies. Posts: 821	Unless the heir from one of the other houses formally abdicated and handed authority back to the house of Feanor. __________________ "Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!"

02-20-2006, 03:12 PM	#73
Cerebus Sapling Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6	I understand why the kingship went to the house of Finarfin, however what I'm saying is that after Maedhros' death Maglor could have contested Gil-Galad's claim to the high kingship because he was now the only surviving heir to the house of Feanor and therefore could rescind Maedhros' decision as the head of that house. Edit: Granted, I'm not saying that Maglor would have wanted to contest Gil-Galad's claim, but that the possibility existed for him to do so. So really, this is all just semantics because Maglor was so guilt stricken that he couldn't even associate with other elves anyway, let alone try to lead the Noldorin remnant. Last edited by Cerebus : 02-20-2006 at 03:18 PM.

10-19-2002, 04:33 AM	#62
the real findorfin Sapling Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 13	Thanks Guys! I really wish I had the Home series, gotta get it soon. Yeh, Orodreth's claim makes sense now. It is the general theory that Gil-Galad escaped the ruin of NArgothornd and fled to the Havens? Similar to Elwing fleeing Menegroth.

10-19-2002, 11:48 AM	#63
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	He was sent there by his father some years before the fall of nargothrond. It may have been for safety, but that would have been a goof, since the havens fell before Nargothrond. Likely there was a educational reason, Oredreth may have sent him to Aqquire shipbuilding technology. Gil-Galad was half Sindar, so perhaps he was also some sort of junior ambassador.

02-20-2006, 12:49 PM	#66
Cerebus Sapling Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6	Where does Maglor get lost in all of this though? If I remember correctly, after the War of Wrath he's just wondering around the coasts of ME and we never hear from him again. Since I haven't read the HOME series I don't know of any further explanation. But, technically wouldn't he have some sort of claim to the High Kingship?

02-20-2006, 03:27 PM	#74
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	Wow, how could I forget? It DID happen, as far as I remember, but not with Maglor! It happened in Hollin, in the Second Age. Gil-Galad was the High King, but Celebrimbor, lord of Eregion, was Curufin's son, of the house of Feanor. I don't remember if he actually contested Gil-Galad's High kinship, but sure he didn't hearken to his advice (re:Annatar) and was very independant. The Mirdain asked Galadriel and Celeborn who tried to lord it over them, to go pack.

02-20-2006, 05:22 PM	#77
Cerebus Sapling Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6	I suppose my original question is answered then. All I was looking for was a precedent (basically) for someone of the house of Feanor trying to reassert himself as High King, because as supposed to the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, Feanor and his sons were 100% Noldorin and I thought that their pure descent (so to speak) should have held more weight. On another note however... It's generally thought (or at least I've been told) that Elrond could never claim the High kingship because his Noldorin descent was from Idril (a female). However in Doriath, the Sindar don't seem to have any qualms about Dior (descended from Thingol through his daughter Luthien) inheriting the High Kingship of Beleriand despite not coming directly from a male heir. Were these differences just cultural or what? Last edited by Cerebus : 02-20-2006 at 05:29 PM.

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