Falling Into Fantasy

Starr Polish · 12-11-2002, 10:13 PM

The TIME article (up on TOR.n) inspired me to write a little about why 'popular culture' is veering to the past...fantasy, rather than what had been the 'fad' for awhile, or the future/sci-fi. If this is in the wrong forum please move it!

I don't think anyone can deny the sudden surge in popularity of fantasy anything, be it books, games (electronic and card), and movies. Most of us, if not all, have seen this first hand. Why does it feel like fantasy has suddenly become the chosen genre for not just geeks, but mainstream society?

Well, of course, you have to look back, since Lord of the Rings became popular, fantasy has been fairly popular and steadily growing. But with the explosive and long popularity of sci-fi, including Star Trek and Star Wars, it is a bit suprising that fantasy has become as popular as it has in the past few years.

Yes, we have the Peter Jackson movies to blame, or praise. Regardless what you think of the movie, he has brought one of, if not THE, most beloved fantasy stories to life on screen, with huge success. There have to be other things as well. Why has society stopped looking to the future and began looking to the past?

My guess, though not backed by any research other than my own observations, would have to be how quickly we are advancing. Technology has made people more distant, through contact that involved nothing but unpersonalized words on a computer screen. Some people may be unconciously thinking of a '1984' scenario and are somewhat wary of technology and where it would take us. At what I think to be the breakthrough period of sci-fi (when Star Wars came out), mainstream society was looking forward to the future with its technological advances that were supposed to make life easier. Imagining how life would be if our technology were incredibly advanced was, and still is, a type of fantasy. Now that we have reached the Technological Age, life isn't any simpler. In fact, it's much more complicated and hectic then it has ever been. Perhaps we're returning to the fantasy genre because it generally looks to times that represent the past, and thus we think 'simpler'. Are we right to think that it was a simple life? No, not necessarily, but that is how we tend to view it. A time with kingly men, 'good old fashioned war-fare', and knowing that in good time, evil shall fall is probably what most people are thinking of now. With war all around us (and as an American, I cannot help but relate this to the September 11 attacks, 'War on Terrorism', and Iraq) we don't want to think about the future, which is terribly uncertain. Why not look to the past, where we know (or at least, we think we know) how things will be.

Duddun · 12-11-2002, 11:54 PM

Ok, I probably can't write that much on this but heres my opinion:
I think from my perspective, it is becoming harder and harder to write scifi because war in the future is boom, nuclear bomb hit the country, byebye. Which results in less scifi books coming out, and the old ones are now outdated and happening. This reduced the popularity of scifi and people had to find a new world un alike to the real world to go into. So they chose Fantasy, because most other books relate quite a bit to the real world. This results in lots of Fantasy popularity.
I hope all that made sense!

***HOBBIT*** · 12-12-2002, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Duddun
Ok, I probably can't write that much on this but heres my opinion:
I think from my perspective, it is becoming harder and harder to write scifi because war in the future is boom, nuclear bomb hit the country, byebye. Which results in less scifi books coming out, and the old ones are now outdated and happening. This reduced the popularity of scifi and people had to find a new world un alike to the real world to go into. So they chose Fantasy, because most other books relate quite a bit to the real world. This results in lots of Fantasy popularity.
I hope all that made sense!

I undertand what you are saying, but it makes no sense still.

Duddun · 12-12-2002, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HOBBIT
I undertand what you are saying, but it makes no sense still.

Atleast you understood it! That's all I was hoping for.

Stuff that comes out of my mouth never makes sense.

Silverstripe · 12-12-2002, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Duddun
Ok, I probably can't write that much on this but heres my opinion:
I think from my perspective, it is becoming harder and harder to write scifi because war in the future is boom, nuclear bomb hit the country, byebye. Which results in less scifi books coming out, and the old ones are now outdated and happening. This reduced the popularity of scifi and people had to find a new world un alike to the real world to go into. So they chose Fantasy, because most other books relate quite a bit to the real world. This results in lots of Fantasy popularity.
I hope all that made sense!

Since when does Sci-Fi have to center around war? True, war is becoming very different, but what about sci-fi that focuses on something less than all-out war? OR perhaps a colony (rather than Earth itself) in which humans have gone back to somewhat simpler days, at least in terms of weaponry?

RosieCotton · 12-12-2002, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silverstripe
Since when does Sci-Fi have to center around war? True, war is becoming very different, but what about sci-fi that focuses on something less than all-out war? OR perhaps a colony (rather than Earth itself) in which humans have gone back to somewhat simpler days, at least in terms of weaponry?

I agree. Sci-Fi can be peaceful. It can even be Sci-Fi AND fantasy, in a sense.

Rosie

Duddun · 12-12-2002, 08:38 PM

Yes, but many have to do with war. I did not mean to say that all sci-fi was that way. That was the only type I could make an argument against though.

Silverstripe · 12-13-2002, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Duddun
Yes, but many have to do with war. I did not mean to say that all sci-fi was that way. That was the only type I could make an argument against though.

Even the war related sci-fi can still be done. Say everyone has nuclear weapons -- then they don't have all-out wars, but terrorism could be rampant. The trouble is, that would now seem too real to most people, and might not be as fun to read.

BeardofPants · 12-13-2002, 03:21 PM

I had a long reply to this yesterday, but then my stupid computer died. *sigh*

The basic gist was that this current clime (fear of war, sept 11, etc) is far from a new thing. It would be interesting to see if there was a surge in fantasy literature in the vietnam war, etc. (ie, a surge in Tolkien.)

However, doesn't fantasy tend to be geared more towards warfare and conflict than sci-fi? I wouldn't know... I tend to read sci-fi more than the fantasy genre, so if someone can provide examples, that would be great.

Duddan: I wouldn't say that most sci-fi was geared by war-fare. Oftentimes, war may only be a small segment of what the book is trying to say. Dune, for instance, was focussed more on economics, and genetics, and survival (the fremen.) The foundation series is about attaining a sort of utopia (well, not really, but attempting to avoid a babaric existence.) Sure, warfare is a small part of it, but the greater message is about how 'mankind' can control their destinies using mathematics, and prediction. Even Heinlein's Starship Troopers isn't about warfare... directly. Granted, the whole thing is about the Infantry, but the message is bigger than that. It carries across a very chilling message about a society that has very similar ideals to a certain superpower. It is more about the human psyche in a society that has totally skewed ideals, than it is about war, although war is certainly the background to the book. Philip K Dick doesn't even go into war, from the books I've read. (Ubik, Valis, Man in the High Castle, etc.) His books are geared more towards blurring reality, and portraying mental breakdowns extremely well. Valis was probably one of the most confusing and disturbing things I've read in a long time.

Wayfarer · 12-13-2002, 04:01 PM

Absolutely.

I'm not sure I've ever read a novel that was actually about war. It might be about the people that are participating in the war, or people who are affected by the war, but who'se going to write about the war itself? That would be awfully dry reading, in most cases.

Wayfarer · 12-13-2002, 04:04 PM

Incidentally, did anyone else think that the aforementioned time article was absolute drivel?

I have a small book of half a dozen essays on tolkien that have been written, and whoever the times got to write for them basically repeated what's been said about tolkien for most of the century.

Starr Polish · 03-27-2003, 10:30 PM

Bump, just because.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-27-2003, 10:36 PM

A fine reason indeed.

Huan · 03-27-2003, 10:48 PM

Beard of Pants wrote: The basic gist was that this current clime (fear of war, sept 11, etc) is far from a new thing. It would be interesting to see if there was a surge in fantasy literature in the vietnam war, etc. (ie, a surge in Tolkien.)

In fact there WAS a huge surge in Tolkien's popularity among the youth culture during the Vietnam era. The '60s is the time when the phrase "Frodo lives!" was actually coined, I believe. People have always attributed Tolkien's popularity with 60's youth to the hobbits' fondness for "pipe-weed" and mushrooms, but what we're talking about here could (and probably does) have a lot to do with it.

Rána Eressëa · 03-27-2003, 10:55 PM

I recently read an article about TTT in Entertainment Weekly expressing your exactly views, Starr. Funny, I say.

I think it's the fact that we've reached the technological age and it's become the norm for us, so it doesn't surprise us anymore like it used to. So now, people are looking into the past because it contains so many things we've almost virtually given up - it's a different like from what we live now.

But I think if War takes over the planet and we start nuking . . . well, it's gonna be one, big "Hello, Past!" smack in the face. Then our great, great, great, great, great, great, great, etc. descendents will hear all these fables about steel "birds" that carried people, a stick that magically killed, people who lived in little boxes with a side made of glass so we could watch them, and even containers that could capture voices and play them endlessly...

Starr Polish · 03-27-2003, 11:10 PM

Are you implying I stole it?

Nope, completely original.

It's funny you should mention that. Harry Turtledove wrote a story that went along those lines. The called it the "Big Oops".

Rána Eressëa · 03-28-2003, 12:07 AM

I was actually implying that they might have stolen it from you.

BeardofPants · 03-28-2003, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rána Eressëa
I think it's the fact that we've reached the technological age and it's become the norm for us, so it doesn't surprise us anymore like it used to.

Yes, but we still haven't reached to so-called Space Age yet, so I maintain that sci-fi still has a lot to offer; there is a great deal of romanticism attached space travel. Also: we didn't just arrive at this point in time with a sudden jump in technology; we've been developing this incrementally over the last several thousand years. What makes you think that the boredom will kick in now of all times? And what the #$%! is that bad smell?!

Baby-K · 03-28-2003, 03:11 AM

Quote:

And what the #$%! is that bad smell?!

Something that wifted over here from the women's thread... ask Coney, he might be responsible

I agree with BoP that space travel to a large degree is still very much a romantic notion. Even though we have become used to the idea of people travelling to space etc, it is still not something that we can do at a whim - it remains something we dream of or even fantasise about.
Sci fi in a way offers us a look at what could be waiting for us. That's the romance of it I suppose, all those hero's going off to explore the wild, great unkown...hell if you think about it before 1492 the discovery of America could have been sci fi to the good people of the old world.

How could we ever become bored of exploring, learning new things, pushing ourselves to new limits / greater heights?

Dúnedain · 03-28-2003, 03:30 AM

Oh for a minute there, judging from the title, I thought you were were going to talk about my charm and good looks

12-11-2002, 10:13 PM	#1
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Falling Into Fantasy The TIME article (up on TOR.n) inspired me to write a little about why 'popular culture' is veering to the past...fantasy, rather than what had been the 'fad' for awhile, or the future/sci-fi. If this is in the wrong forum please move it! I don't think anyone can deny the sudden surge in popularity of fantasy anything, be it books, games (electronic and card), and movies. Most of us, if not all, have seen this first hand. Why does it feel like fantasy has suddenly become the chosen genre for not just geeks, but mainstream society? Well, of course, you have to look back, since Lord of the Rings became popular, fantasy has been fairly popular and steadily growing. But with the explosive and long popularity of sci-fi, including Star Trek and Star Wars, it is a bit suprising that fantasy has become as popular as it has in the past few years. Yes, we have the Peter Jackson movies to blame, or praise. Regardless what you think of the movie, he has brought one of, if not THE, most beloved fantasy stories to life on screen, with huge success. There have to be other things as well. Why has society stopped looking to the future and began looking to the past? My guess, though not backed by any research other than my own observations, would have to be how quickly we are advancing. Technology has made people more distant, through contact that involved nothing but unpersonalized words on a computer screen. Some people may be unconciously thinking of a '1984' scenario and are somewhat wary of technology and where it would take us. At what I think to be the breakthrough period of sci-fi (when Star Wars came out), mainstream society was looking forward to the future with its technological advances that were supposed to make life easier. Imagining how life would be if our technology were incredibly advanced was, and still is, a type of fantasy. Now that we have reached the Technological Age, life isn't any simpler. In fact, it's much more complicated and hectic then it has ever been. Perhaps we're returning to the fantasy genre because it generally looks to times that represent the past, and thus we think 'simpler'. Are we right to think that it was a simple life? No, not necessarily, but that is how we tend to view it. A time with kingly men, 'good old fashioned war-fare', and knowing that in good time, evil shall fall is probably what most people are thinking of now. With war all around us (and as an American, I cannot help but relate this to the September 11 attacks, 'War on Terrorism', and Iraq) we don't want to think about the future, which is terribly uncertain. Why not look to the past, where we know (or at least, we think we know) how things will be. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

12-11-2002, 11:54 PM	#2
Duddun I Antha Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: You expect ME to know? Posts: 784	Ok, I probably can't write that much on this but heres my opinion: I think from my perspective, it is becoming harder and harder to write scifi because war in the future is boom, nuclear bomb hit the country, byebye. Which results in less scifi books coming out, and the old ones are now outdated and happening. This reduced the popularity of scifi and people had to find a new world un alike to the real world to go into. So they chose Fantasy, because most other books relate quite a bit to the real world. This results in lots of Fantasy popularity. I hope all that made sense! __________________ If you say my name I go "What?" If you say my name twice I go and look it up in the dictionary. **************************** I'm Not Evil! ************************** If the critics say it's good, is it really That good? ************************** It's a bird! It's a plane! No! It's a balloon! **************************** Duddun, Son of Bubbun

12-12-2002, 08:38 PM	#7
Duddun I Antha Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: You expect ME to know? Posts: 784	Yes, but many have to do with war. I did not mean to say that all sci-fi was that way. That was the only type I could make an argument against though. __________________ If you say my name I go "What?" If you say my name twice I go and look it up in the dictionary. **************************** I'm Not Evil! ************************** If the critics say it's good, is it really That good? ************************** It's a bird! It's a plane! No! It's a balloon! **************************** Duddun, Son of Bubbun

12-13-2002, 03:21 PM	#9
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I had a long reply to this yesterday, but then my stupid computer died. sigh The basic gist was that this current clime (fear of war, sept 11, etc) is far from a new thing. It would be interesting to see if there was a surge in fantasy literature in the vietnam war, etc. (ie, a surge in Tolkien.) However, doesn't fantasy tend to be geared more towards warfare and conflict than sci-fi? I wouldn't know... I tend to read sci-fi more than the fantasy genre, so if someone can provide examples, that would be great. Duddan: I wouldn't say that most sci-fi was geared by war-fare. Oftentimes, war may only be a small segment of what the book is trying to say. Dune, for instance, was focussed more on economics, and genetics, and survival (the fremen.) The foundation series is about attaining a sort of utopia (well, not really, but attempting to avoid a babaric existence.) Sure, warfare is a small part of it, but the greater message is about how 'mankind' can control their destinies using mathematics, and prediction. Even Heinlein's Starship Troopers isn't about warfare... directly. Granted, the whole thing is about the Infantry, but the message is bigger than that. It carries across a very chilling message about a society that has very similar ideals to a certain superpower. It is more about the human psyche in a society that has totally skewed ideals, than it is about war, although war is certainly the background to the book. Philip K Dick doesn't even go into war, from the books I've read. (Ubik, Valis, Man in the High Castle, etc.) His books are geared more towards blurring reality, and portraying mental breakdowns extremely well. Valis was probably one of the most confusing and disturbing things I've read in a long time. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

12-13-2002, 04:01 PM	#10
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Absolutely. I'm not sure I've ever read a novel that was actually about war. It might be about the people that are participating in the war, or people who are affected by the war, but who'se going to write about the war itself? That would be awfully dry reading, in most cases. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-13-2002, 04:04 PM	#11
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Incidentally, did anyone else think that the aforementioned time article was absolute drivel? I have a small book of half a dozen essays on tolkien that have been written, and whoever the times got to write for them basically repeated what's been said about tolkien for most of the century. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

03-27-2003, 10:30 PM	#12
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Bump, just because. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

03-27-2003, 10:36 PM	#13
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	A fine reason indeed. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-27-2003, 10:48 PM	#14
Huan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Oxford, MS Posts: 274	Beard of Pants wrote: The basic gist was that this current clime (fear of war, sept 11, etc) is far from a new thing. It would be interesting to see if there was a surge in fantasy literature in the vietnam war, etc. (ie, a surge in Tolkien.) In fact there WAS a huge surge in Tolkien's popularity among the youth culture during the Vietnam era. The '60s is the time when the phrase "Frodo lives!" was actually coined, I believe. People have always attributed Tolkien's popularity with 60's youth to the hobbits' fondness for "pipe-weed" and mushrooms, but what we're talking about here could (and probably does) have a lot to do with it.

03-27-2003, 10:55 PM	#15
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	I recently read an article about TTT in Entertainment Weekly expressing your exactly views, Starr. Funny, I say. I think it's the fact that we've reached the technological age and it's become the norm for us, so it doesn't surprise us anymore like it used to. So now, people are looking into the past because it contains so many things we've almost virtually given up - it's a different like from what we live now. But I think if War takes over the planet and we start nuking . . . well, it's gonna be one, big "Hello, Past!" smack in the face. Then our great, great, great, great, great, great, great, etc. descendents will hear all these fables about steel "birds" that carried people, a stick that magically killed, people who lived in little boxes with a side made of glass so we could watch them, and even containers that could capture voices and play them endlessly... Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 03-27-2003 at 10:57 PM.

03-27-2003, 11:10 PM	#16
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Are you implying I stole it? Nope, completely original. It's funny you should mention that. Harry Turtledove wrote a story that went along those lines. The called it the "Big Oops". __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

03-28-2003, 12:07 AM	#17
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	I was actually implying that they might have stolen it from you.

03-28-2003, 03:30 AM	#20
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Oh for a minute there, judging from the title, I thought you were were going to talk about my charm and good looks __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

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