The Dunedain of the North and of the South

[Grey_Wolf]

Aragorn can rightly claim to be direct decendant through 39 generations to Isildur. No weakening of the blood have apparently occurred in the north. The south on the other hand appears to have suffered from this by the mere fact when the last king died there were no direct descendants who could claim the throne. Stewards had to take their place. Why is this really? Where the northerners more careful with whom they married and than the southerners?

[Earniel]

After the fall of Fornost and the death of Arvedui, all heirs of the royal line were fostered in Rivendell. Without the protection and secrecy that Elrond's House offered, I doubt the line would have continued the way it did. Still, much was riding on Aragorn, if he came to perish, that very likely would have been the end of the direct line.

Gondorean Dúnedain were no less harried, perhaps even more so as the heirs of Anárion didn't have the option of raising children in hiding. The Kin-strife for example undoubtedly removed quite a few kin-lineages and heirs from the royal line by death or exile in Umbar. It also brought in new blood from the people of Rhovanion. A deadly plague further diminished the Southern Dúnedain. And then there were quite a bit of wars with Easterlings, Haradrim and Corsairs. I'm not surprised that after all that, they had a bit of bother finding a King with enough lineage to be called King.

[Grey_Wolf]

Thanks, Eärniel. Much obliged for your informative post.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I'm not surprised that after all that, they had a bit of bother finding a King with enough lineage to be called King.

There were still descendents of Anarion around after the fall of Eanur, but all were carrying some sort of baggage like mixed blood or close relation to traitors, etc, that pressing their claims had a high risk of civil war.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Without the protection and secrecy that Elrond's House offered, I doubt the line would have continued the way it did. Still, much was riding on Aragorn, if he came to perish, that very likely would have been the end of the direct line.

All right. Elrond kept a close tab on all Isildur's descendants, but not because of a deep compassion for poor successors of a ragged royal house. And a lot of secrecy around young and not so young dunedain, stationed at his court, was needed not for theirs protection, but for a protection of an ace hidden up in Elves' sleeve - an unconquering power, which was not obtainable by nobody, but by the heir of Isildur.
Nevertheless none of the heirs of Numenorian kings brought up sheltered in Rivendell. If Aragorn by the young age of 20 has already returned to Rivendell from having done “a great deeds”, which is, considering the situation in Eriador, could be no other than a big fights with enemies, then it save to assume that other his 15 predecessors were no less as brave and active participants in dangerous battles, as he was. You can't call it being sheltered and protected.
So the heirs of Isildur lived all their lives and died as plain Rangers, because it was not politically beneficial for the Elves. And I see no reason for the Elves to make an exception to Aragorn, and I suspect there was none. He was treated like all others Isildur’s heirs.

[Earniel]

Hello Olmer, I suspected this thread would draw your attention.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Nevertheless none of the heirs of Numenorian kings brought up sheltered in Rivendell. If Aragorn by the young age of 20 has already returned to Rivendell from having done “a great deeds�, which is, considering the situation in Eriador, could be no other than a big fights with enemies, then it save to assume that other his 15 predecessors were no less as brave and active participants in dangerous battles, as he was. You can't call it being sheltered and protected.

Agreed. The fact that Rivendell could offer shelter and protection does not mean the Heirs of Isildur would be pampered. Life of the Rangers was pretty tough indeed, and their leaders would need to be able to live that life as well.

But Aragorn and his predecessors could make use of Rivendell's safety in a way the Kings of Gondor could not. It seems unlikely a plague like the one that decimated the southern Dúnedain, including killing both the King and all his children in one go, could have reached the heirs of Isildur in Rivendell the same way. All chieftains raised in Rivendell could leave Rivendell once they were grown and meet with enemies on their own terms, they could seek them out. And while they obviously didn't hurry back to Rivendell the moment they ran into trouble, their enemies ordinarily would have a lot more trouble finding them. Whereas in Gondor the Nazghûl themselves could come to Eärnur and gaud him into a duel on his own doorstep.

Mordor would have known fairly accurately who was ruler in Gondor, who the heir was and probably which noble had influence in the court and where to find them most of the time (Osgiliath and later Minas Tirith), but would Sauron have possessed that same knowledge of the Northern line?

In a way the heirs of Isildur were far more vulnerable than those of Anárion, but their safety lay in secrecy and hiding. They had no court, no obvious abode, no official treaties with other people, they were far harder to pin down. And coupled with the protection (even if only for the formative years) of the heirs in Rivendell, as well as some good education they could get there, the Northern line had an edge.

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

There were still descendents of Anarion around after the fall of Eanur, but all were carrying some sort of baggage like mixed blood or close relation to traitors, etc, that pressing their claims had a high risk of civil war.

Agreed. I was not implying the line had died out completely, but that there was no descendant that everybody could agree on to take as King, due to some of the circumstances you have mentioned.

[Logkhya]

The topic brings a lots of funny question that should be taken into consideration.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Logkhya

The topic brings a lots of funny question that should be taken into consideration.

What questions it could be? Let us hear it.

[Olmer]

Hello back to you, Eärniel Your intuition did not fail you. Here I am on my favorite subject - the Contriving Elves.

Whereas in Gondor the Nazghûl themselves could come to Eärnur and gaud him into a duel on his own doorstep.

It was personal. Remember who defeated the Witch-King and destroyed Angmar? Other than that Nazghul had never bothered with whoever inheriting the crown of Gondor.

Mordor would have known fairly accurately who was ruler in Gondor....but would Sauron have possessed that same knowledge of the Northern line?

Sauron was not giving a flying pig about Arvedui's line. I suspect, he knew quite well what kind of "help" they have got from Gondor and was fairly sure that Gondor won't make any efforts to let them rise again.
However he was not aware of the Oathbreakers and the powerful curse. Otherwise he would be much more interested in Isildur's heirs.
The elves knew and kept it secret, taking care of Dunedain's line.

... but their safety lay in secrecy and hiding. They had no court, no obvious abode, no official treaties with other people, they were far harder to pin down.

Oh, they had abodes besides Elves's court. All right. And I assume it were quite large, so for 16 generation they were managing to keep the blood pure, which means it was more than enough of available purebred maidens, not too close relatives and with king's blood.
Gondor, seems, with all their potentials and intentions did not have such luxury of choices.

And coupled with the protection (even if only for the formative years) of the heirs in Rivendell, as well as some good education they could get there, the Northern line had an edge.

Agree on education. Teaching an assembly of very well trained, experienced in combat and grateful Numenorian’s descendants to an absolute loyalty to the elves .
Protection...not much. Only to keep the existence of heirs secret up to the point, and then they will be on their own. Fighting, dying...I think Elrond entirely secured his secret weapon by making sure that in absence of a direct heir it will be someone next in line, who will evoke the summons of the Dead.

[Valandil]

Sorry Olmer... I just can't imagine Elrond running a nursery/day care for all the little Dunedain descendants of Arvedui.

[Olmer]

Why not? He had a lot of space and a lot of idling elves busy with nothing, but singing songs and strolling in the woods - perfect babysitters.
Besides, no heed to keep a whole kindergarden - just a few kids with close relation, that were blending in with running around elven kids.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Olmer

And I assume it were quite large, so for 16 generation they were managing to keep the blood pure, which means it was more than enough of available purebred maidens, not too close relatives and with king's blood. .

yeah, apparently they had a large enough population to avoid ill effects from inbreeding. Either that or they were lucky emnough to have a gene pool with few or no bad recessive genes. Or at least, Tolkien never bothered to write about "a Habsburg jaw" hereditary deformity.

[Valandil]

On your original question, Grey Wolf, it may be partly that the northerners were more careful about who they married - but also, I think their realistic marriage partners were almost exclusively other Dunedain.

In the first thousand years of the Third Age, Arnor did not make attempts to expand the kingdom. And they were hemmed in - arctic areas (with some bands of Lossoth) to the north, ocean to the south, Misty Mountains to the east (with some hill people) and Elves to the west. About all they could have done was expand into Dunland, or else try to expand over the Misty Mountains. They kept to themselves, whereas Gondor was always expanding in this time. In Gondor, while they were rare, political royal marriages to other peoples would have always been a possibility. In Arnor, there was no apparent need for this (until Arvedui and Firiel married in 1940).

In the next thousand years, there was first prolonged civil war among Arnor's daughter kingdoms, then the long campaign against the upsurging land of Angmar. Again - no others to marry with besides their own people.

And in the last thousand years of the Third Age, I think Eriador was largely depopulated altogether - with most Dunedain living in small bands, probably striving to stay connected with one another.

In the north, the idea of intermarriage would have been a tough thing to happen anyway. In Gondor, it may have been almost inevitable.

[Alcuin]

To follow onto Valandil’s ideas, Gondor was always the larger, more populous kingdom. Nine ships of Faithful Númenóreans, followers of Elendil, were driven from the wreck of Númenor by the storm. Elendil landed in the north, Isildur and Anárion in the south. The palantÃ*ri allowed them immediate means of communication, and because there were already Faithful Númenóreans living in these regions as settlers, explorers, tradesmen, craftsmen, and increasingly as political and religious exiles from the King’s Men, Elendil and his sons were quickly able to establish one united kingdom of the Faithful.

But Gondor was the nearest northern neighbor to Umbar, the greatest and principle Númenórean stronghold in Middle-earth. Because of this, its population and economy were larger and better established. The lands that became Arnor seem to have grown from Lond Daer, which though far older than Umbar as a Númenórean settlement was also smaller, and from the Númenórean ship-building operations of the middle part of the Second Age which denuded the great forests of what was later called Enedwaith; presumably, these operations moved far south along the coasts, where Númenor maintained many other colonies.

Valandil has pointed out that fewer opportunities offered themselves to intermarriage for the Northern Dúnedain than their kindred in Gondor. Moreover, the House of Anárion engaged in a bloody civil war in which much of the best blood of Gondor was spilled to no good purpose. Appendix A says that after the rash King Eärnur disappeared,

the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful of those near akin. Often those on whom suspicion fell had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Númenórean blood. So it was that no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow; and all feared the memory of the Kin-strife, knowing that if any such dissension arose again, then Gondor would perish.

After his victory in the Kin-strife, Eldacar had brought more Rhovanions to live permanently in Gondor, beginning the mixing of the people of Middle-earth with the Dúnedain; it accelerated as his descendants became more paranoid about possible contenders to the throne.

On a last note, Michael Martinez once quoted David Sabo’s saying that Tolkien’s unpublished notes indicate that after the fall of Fornost and the end of the Kingdom of Arthedain, the Northern Dúnedain congregated in southern Rhudaur in the Angle between the Mitheithel (Greyflood) and Bruinen (Loudwater) rivers. Thus Barliman Butterbur’s quip to Frodo in the Prancing Pony,

There’s no accounting for East and West, as we say in Bree, meaning the Rangers and the Shire-folk.

[Snowdog]

Excellent dumpster-dive Alcuin! Ive always been intrigued by the Arnorian lands and peoples and have based many an RP in the confines of the sketched outline provided by Tolkien. Great discussion this thread!