Fairies

Shadowfax · 07-11-2003, 08:26 PM

In the first chapter of The Hobbit when the Took family's history is described, it mentions fairies.

Quote:

"It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife."

What exactly is meant by fairy here? Is it just used as a synonym for elf? Or is it referring to something completely different?

Lizra · 07-11-2003, 09:35 PM

I think it is a "hobbity" synonym for elf, of course...the suggestion is goofy!

No way!

cassiopeia · 07-11-2003, 10:57 PM

I always took 'fairy' to mean 'elf'. Of course, the thought of a hobbit taking an elf for a wife is absurb, but not impossible. Elves can mate with Men, hobbits are a sub-group of Men, so...

Lalaith · 07-12-2003, 05:51 AM

.... now I have to think of Pippin and Arwen being a couple, or even worse Pippin and Galadriel ...

***azalea*** · 07-12-2003, 08:08 AM

I never thought of it as refering to elves. I think it could be one of two things -- either Tolkien included it because it was a children's story and he had a penchant for fairy stories, so included a reference there, OR the next line says that that is a ridiculous rumour, so that means that Tolkien is "acknowledging" that fairies don't exist (meaning in the world of ME), so of course that is impossible. I tend to think that more than that it is "ridiculous" because a hobbit and a fairy wouldn't be married. Fairies are never mentioned again (in the main ME stories). Another possibility is that maybe hobbits refer to Maia as fairies (ie, over the generations legends have passed down from factual stories of old or what have you).

Shadowfax · 07-12-2003, 08:12 PM

Thanks for the replies. That helps a lot.

***azalea*** · 09-08-2003, 02:29 PM

Okay, I just read the part last night that describes the Wood-elves, and Tolkien includes a couple of sentences that describe the history of ME in a nutshell. He mentions that the Wood-elves had never been to the Land of Faerie beyond the sea in the West, blah, blah. As I've gleaned from the little I've read of the HoME series, "Faerie" was his name for what would later be called Valinor. So perhaps when he says Faerie, he does mean a Vala or Maia, as I guessed in my post above. And of course that *is* ridiculous, and most hobbits would think it ridiculous as well, but would be a fun kind of tidbit to include when telling the story to hobbit kiddies. IIRC, The Hobbit was written when the other ME mythology was in it's early "Gnome"stage (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), so the beings aren't as "mighty" as they are written later, and his putting that in the book at that point isn't as out of place as it would have been if his later versions had been in existance.

Findegil · 09-09-2003, 08:37 AM

"Faerie" was not a name for Valinor but for what later was called Eldamar => the land inhabited by the Elves (Eldar) in Aman (the western kontinent of the old world). In his early texts Tolkien used faerie as a synonym to Elves. (So Faerie as a land was often also named Elvenhome.) And with that meaning it sliped a few times in to the hobbit. From info we have already collected I would think that faerie only meant the the highelves of the west, and in view of the history the sopused mate of a Took could only be a woman of the Noldor.

Respectfully
Findegil

***azalea*** · 09-09-2003, 10:04 PM

Oh, thanks for the info! Someday I'll have all that HoME stuff down pat.

But I am confused -- I thought it was Gnomes that = Noldor, not Faeries.

Did he use each at different times?

Wayfarer · 09-09-2003, 10:19 PM

The high elves (Vanyar), the deep elves (Noldor), and the sea elves (Teleri) went to 'faerie' in the west. In a previous draft of the mythology, Noldor were Gnomes.

So the Deep Elves, which we call Noldor, were Gnomes, but they were also Faeries.

All Clear? ]: )

***azalea*** · 09-09-2003, 10:23 PM

Ahhhhh, yes (though it took a couple of readings)! Thanks!

But wait, wait, wait...
They WENT to Faerie? But Findegil said Fairie = [edited - I mean Eldamar]?

again!

Wayfarer · 09-09-2003, 10:30 PM

Yes, they went to Faerie.

Remember, Azalea, that the elves were not originally from valinor. They awoke in Cuivenen, in the far east of middle earth. They were invited to Valinor/Aman (faerie), but some didn't come, and some stopped along the way. Those elves that actually came to Valinor and saw the light of the Two Trees (the Calaquendi) were 'Faeries'.

I think..

***azalea*** · 09-09-2003, 10:37 PM

Okay, but Findegil was saying that Faerie couldn't refer to Maiar or Valar because Faeries were elves, but if Faerie = Valinor it could have meant a "divine" being (except that he's saying that faerie refers to elves according to Tolkien, but I was just confused at his logic -- "because 'Faerie = Eldamar, it HAS to meant the elves, not Valar/ Maiar" but then you said Faerie refers to the whole thingy, so I'm still confused, but ready to admit I'm wrong about my "faerie wife" theory).

Findegil · 09-10-2003, 07:04 AM

I think what confused you was Wayfarers short hand:

Quote:

They were invited to Valinor/Aman (faerie), ...

I will try to prolong that for clearity:
The Elves were invited to Valinor, the land of the Valar in Aman, the Kontinent in the West. All Elves that started the journey were called Eldar. The Elves that made there way to Valinor settled there in a smaller area, the Coastlands around the Bay which lie at the feet of Taniquetil, the Calacirya and the lower western slopes of Taniquetil and maybe the island of Tol Eressea. These lands were therefore called Eldamar, the land of the Eldar, or in the ealier mythologie Faerie.

I hope that helps a bit to clear things up.

Respectfully
Findegil

07-11-2003, 09:35 PM	#2
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I think it is a "hobbity" synonym for elf, of course...the suggestion is goofy! No way! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

07-11-2003, 10:57 PM	#3
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	I always took 'fairy' to mean 'elf'. Of course, the thought of a hobbit taking an elf for a wife is absurb, but not impossible. Elves can mate with Men, hobbits are a sub-group of Men, so... __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

07-12-2003, 05:51 AM	#4
Lalaith The Elvish Temptress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,055	.... now I have to think of Pippin and Arwen being a couple, or even worse Pippin and Galadriel ... __________________ What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead.

07-12-2003, 08:12 PM	#6
Shadowfax The Fleet-Footed Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: British Columbia Posts: 913	Thanks for the replies. That helps a lot. __________________ Jesus saved me "To remain ignorant of things that happened before you were born is to remain a child" (Cicero, 106-43 B.C.) "Art is a lie which makes us realize the truth" (Picasso)

09-09-2003, 10:19 PM	#10
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	The high elves (Vanyar), the deep elves (Noldor), and the sea elves (Teleri) went to 'faerie' in the west. In a previous draft of the mythology, Noldor were Gnomes. So the Deep Elves, which we call Noldor, were Gnomes, but they were also Faeries. All Clear? ]: ) __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

07-12-2003, 08:08 AM	#5
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I never thought of it as refering to elves. I think it could be one of two things -- either Tolkien included it because it was a children's story and he had a penchant for fairy stories, so included a reference there, OR the next line says that that is a ridiculous rumour, so that means that Tolkien is "acknowledging" that fairies don't exist (meaning in the world of ME), so of course that is impossible. I tend to think that more than that it is "ridiculous" because a hobbit and a fairy wouldn't be married. Fairies are never mentioned again (in the main ME stories). Another possibility is that maybe hobbits refer to Maia as fairies (ie, over the generations legends have passed down from factual stories of old or what have you).

09-08-2003, 02:29 PM	#7
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Okay, I just read the part last night that describes the Wood-elves, and Tolkien includes a couple of sentences that describe the history of ME in a nutshell. He mentions that the Wood-elves had never been to the Land of Faerie beyond the sea in the West, blah, blah. As I've gleaned from the little I've read of the HoME series, "Faerie" was his name for what would later be called Valinor. So perhaps when he says Faerie, he does mean a Vala or Maia, as I guessed in my post above. And of course that is ridiculous, and most hobbits would think it ridiculous as well, but would be a fun kind of tidbit to include when telling the story to hobbit kiddies. IIRC, The Hobbit was written when the other ME mythology was in it's early "Gnome"stage (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), so the beings aren't as "mighty" as they are written later, and his putting that in the book at that point isn't as out of place as it would have been if his later versions had been in existance.

09-09-2003, 08:37 AM	#8
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	"Faerie" was not a name for Valinor but for what later was called Eldamar => the land inhabited by the Elves (Eldar) in Aman (the western kontinent of the old world). In his early texts Tolkien used faerie as a synonym to Elves. (So Faerie as a land was often also named Elvenhome.) And with that meaning it sliped a few times in to the hobbit. From info we have already collected I would think that faerie only meant the the highelves of the west, and in view of the history the sopused mate of a Took could only be a woman of the Noldor. Respectfully Findegil

09-09-2003, 10:04 PM	#9
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Oh, thanks for the info! Someday I'll have all that HoME stuff down pat. But I am confused -- I thought it was Gnomes that = Noldor, not Faeries. Did he use each at different times?

09-09-2003, 10:23 PM	#11
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Ahhhhh, yes (though it took a couple of readings)! Thanks! But wait, wait, wait... They WENT to Faerie? But Findegil said Fairie = [edited - I mean Eldamar]? again!

09-09-2003, 10:30 PM	#12
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Yes, they went to Faerie. Remember, Azalea, that the elves were not originally from valinor. They awoke in Cuivenen, in the far east of middle earth. They were invited to Valinor/Aman (faerie), but some didn't come, and some stopped along the way. Those elves that actually came to Valinor and saw the light of the Two Trees (the Calaquendi) were 'Faeries'. I think.. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

09-09-2003, 10:37 PM	#13
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Okay, but Findegil was saying that Faerie couldn't refer to Maiar or Valar because Faeries were elves, but if Faerie = Valinor it could have meant a "divine" being (except that he's saying that faerie refers to elves according to Tolkien, but I was just confused at his logic -- "because 'Faerie = Eldamar, it HAS to meant the elves, not Valar/ Maiar" but then you said Faerie refers to the whole thingy, so I'm still confused, but ready to admit I'm wrong about my "faerie wife" theory).

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