Great Goblin

[webwizard333]

How did the Great Goblin become leader? Was he elected (doubtful), inherited from his father (maybe), or what I think is most likely, killed off oponents. What do you think?

[Comic Book Guy]

I believe Webwizard is right in thinking that the Great Goblins 'might' made him leader would be most probable, probally he was leader because he made other orcs fear him and honour him, 'O Tremendous One' he is called by a another orc, giving him a rather 'Masterful' status.

[Twilight]

I don't think of goblins as the type that go for elections. I think that a big part would be that he is bigger, stronger, and smarter (hopefully) then all of the other orcs. It could be heriditary if the family had good genes for producing huge offspring. I think that if a weak child would problably get killed rather quickly in that society, so only strong children would inherit the throne.

I think that the orcish society likes to be dominated and have a strong authority over them. They would obey orders out of fear primarily. If a chance ever came for orcs to become free of their leaders, I don't think that they would take it. I don't think that orcs would ever voluntarily turn to democracy. They have always been used to strong leadership, and wouldn't know what to do without it. I am sure that there are internal struggles for power within orcish society. The most powerful orc always gets the throne.

[Legolas_BowKing]

I think that it would just the biggest and strongest which became leader. I dont think that even then a goblin would stay at the top for very long.

[Twilight]

It seems in the book as if the great goblin had been there for a long time. If there was such a hugh turnover in leadership, then the goblins would have been fighting each other instead of going out in revenge. Beorn was boasting about the great goblin being killed. It takes quite a lot to impress him. if goblin leaders got replaced so easily, then such a big deal wouldn't have been made of it.

[cameronkendrick]

Twilight:

First off I get the feeling that goblins are excitable things (understatement of the year). Being that as it is of course the goblins would have come full blast for the Dwarves, Bilbo, and Gandolf. You must also remember that when Bilbo escapes from Gollum by jumping over him, there is a well organized group of goblins set up to watch over the exit of their domain. This hints to me that there is still a sense of order (limited as it could be, seeing that it is goblins). This leads me to believe that maybe a new ruler has already taken the "throne". Another thing to remember is that by the time Bilbo has escaped a day or two has passed.

As for how the great Goblin became king-LOTR The Two Towers is a good source to figure this out. Remember when the Goblins are heading through Rohan with the Hobbits (Pip and Merry) there are several altercations between Ugluk (the leader) and anyone who strays from his way of thinking. His usual answer is removing a few goblin heads. This leads you to think that power is established by force. But later on Grimnashk grabs the Hobbits in the confusion of the assult by the Riders of Rohan and plans to steal what he believes they possess to gain control over the situation and to over throw Ugluk's command. So, obviously Goblins use cunning, craftiness, and/or deceit to gain their motives. Base these thoughts on the Goblins under the mountain in The Hobbit and I think it would be a good basis to figuring out how the Great Goblin became king.

[Twilight]

There is a differance between the two orcish societies. With Ugluk and Grimnashk wasn't one under Sauron and the other under Sauruman. I wish I had a copy of the books with me. All I have is the hobbit. In any case, it is a differant society from the more stable goblin population that lived under the mountains. They were more under self rule. A new leader would take over quickly. Yes, they would go after dwarves in most circumstances, if nothing else so that they couldn't tell anybody where there home is. It would take them something major to make the goblins continue the chace to beyond beorns location.

[cameronkendrick]

Touchee, I hadn't really put the orcs from LOTR in that light. Chances are that was a major factor to their confrontations, but if I remember correctly Ugluk had to threaten the same brute force on some of his clan of orcs to keep them in line. But your point is duely noted and I will think on that more. Thanks for the incite.

Cam

[Twilight]

I am sure that there was lots of beating up of ones own kind. That is the way that the orcs kept order within themselves for the most part. I feel that there is some degree of stability once one gets to the leader position. Others may want to advance to that point, but it doesn't happen very often because the one in charge has such a strong grip for that to happen.

[cameronkendrick]

exactly!! Fear can be a marvelous controlling tool. It is only to obvious in our present world. No need to dwell on that though.

Cam

[barrelrider110]

Some thoughts:
I tend to think The Great Goblin as bigger than all the other goblins. He is referred to as "oh, tremendous one." One would tend to think in this tribal society that he won his title by being the strongest. There is however, some reverence placed on him because the goblins are out to avenge his death. either because of age or lineage. He is old, he remembers Orcrist and the wars with Gondolin. Upon his death, no other Goblin claims his title, and there is no cry of "long live the Great Goblin" that would indicate a successor by birth. But someone had to rally them to travel to the lonely mountain to fight in the battle of the five armies.

I think the Great Goblin was so called because of his size and age and GG is not the title of the goblin monarch. He probably just took over when there was a leadership vaccuum created on the battlefield during the elven wars.

[francod]

why was the great goblin great

[francod]

He wore 99 in pee wee hockey

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by barrelrider110
I think the Great Goblin was so called because of his size and age and GG is not the title of the goblin monarch. He probably just took over when there was a leadership vaccuum created on the battlefield during the elven wars.

I agree. He's described as having a huge head, for one thing. This was just a "nest" or whatever you call it by a mountain pass -- wasn't there a big city of them north at Gundabad? That would be the most likely place for any monarch or overall chief to sit, if there was one.

That's a good point about the leadership vacuum. The wars with the dwarves ended in the battle of Nanduhirion 91 years before Bilbo was born, and the orcs must have been decimated at first, and by the time of the story were beginning to thrive again. The group Thorin & Co. encountered must have been old ones, though, because they all recognized "Biter" and "Beater," which hadn't been seen for literally ages. One can imagine these war-hardened nasty fighters over the years doing what Gorbag describes in the old days: banding together here and there with "a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses" until finally there was a fairly large group of them collecting the loot available from the main passes over the Misty Mountains in that region, and with the biggest and baddest of them setting himself up as a very "big boss" indeed.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
That would be the most likely place for any monarch or overall chief to sit, if there was one.

That would be Blog, son of Azog, who (Blog) commanded at the battle of the five armies.

[Agburanar]

Bolg of the north, whose father Azog was killed in the mines of Moria by (Thror or Thrain?).

I reckon if you give goblins enough fighting and bickering to do with other people they won't bother about you really.

[francod]

5) Mastered the less than< greater than > signs at a young age
4)read Tom Brokaw's the Greatest generation several times
3) Has made pizza with a cheese grater many times
2) The Great Gatsby loosley based biography
1) Has the personal endorsement of Tony the Tiger "He's Grrrrreat"

[durin's bane]

He was most likely chosen because he was bigger and stronger. And maybe he killed off a huge load of Orcs to make them afraid of them so they'd respect him and take orders.

[Bombadillo]

Originally posted by durin's bane
He was most likely chosen because he was bigger and stronger. And maybe he killed off a huge load of Orcs to make them afraid of them so they'd respect him and take orders.

I agree, but I don't think it was respect so much as fear. Or maybe he was just the dominant specimen, sort of like a queen bee: atoumatically the most important bee. Or goblin.

[Agburanar]

Mebbe that was his size issue, imagine giving birth to that quantity of goblins....


eeeurgh!