Sorcerors of the line of Elros

[CrazySquirrel]

Hello, mooters!

It seems I have got a good idea. Well, maybe not THAT good, but let us see!
(at least Olmer and Gordis both thought it were good, or so I understood...)

I think that ALL the HUMAN sorcerors and/or prophets that are ever mentioned by Tolkien BELONG to the LINE OF ELROS. Or are quite likely to belong to it. That line has elven blood and more important MAIA blood (from Melian).

I propose we do like that: let's make the complete list of persons (MEN AND WOMAN -not 100% elves) that were ever suspected of paranormal abilities and then check them one by one.

So here goes:
Luthien - very powerful sorceress!
Dior???
Elwing -sorceress
Elrond - sorceror - yes. Prophet for sure!
Elros -???
Tar - Aldarion's father (UT) prophet yes.
Other Kings of Numenor???

Witch-King - Sorceror YES, prophet yes?(predicted Grima's fate in UT)
Tar Palantir - prophet YES

Elendil ??
Anarion ??
Isildur - Sorceror YES! (ask the poor people of the Mountains) Prophet - yes?

Beruthiel - Was she of the Line of Elros? - SORCERESS!

Malbeth the Seer (could be Arvedui's relative) sorceror ? Prophet - YES!

Gilraen's mother (a descendant of Valandil) Prophet - yes
Gilraen's father - as well

Aragorn - prophet
And, of course, "the hands of the King are the hands of a healer"

Now help me, please: I must have forgotten a lot of guys!

Any ideas?

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I think that ALL the HUMAN sorcerors and/or prophets that are ever mentioned by Tolkien BELONG to the LINE OF ELROS. Or are quite likely to belong to it.

What about these?

Beorn (“a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician”—The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien no. 144)
The Drúedain (“they had, or were credited with, strange or magical powers”—‘The Drúedain’, Unfinished Tales)

Edit—this thread would have been perfect for the Middle Earth [sic] forum...

[Gordis]

Interesting thoughts CS!

Beruthiel may have been a descendent of Herumor or Fuinur and as they were Numenorean Lords they probably were of Elros's line.
Actually she must have been of royal blood, unles how could the King Tarannon have married her?

Originally Posted by Maerbenn

What about these?
Beorn (“a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician”—The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien no. 144)
The Drúedain (“they had, or were credited with, strange or magical powers”—‘The Drúedain’, Unfinished Tales)

Are you sure, Maerbenn, that Beorn was a MAN?
The druedain were able to sit still for a very long time and sense danger (vaguely as animals do), but was this acually MAGIC?

[Lefty Scaevola]

I noted in a SIL thread that most Human prophets seemd to be descended from the Half-elven or were closely associated with the Noldor in Beleriand, and had come under their doom/fate. And theorized that the incidence prophecy among mortals was link to how closely they were bound to the fate of the Elves who were inescapabley bound to the fate of the world.

Of course the more mudane explanation is the the of mortals we read stories of are mostly those of the royal and noble descendants of the Half-Elven, and thoses closely connected to the Eldar, and we just do not get to hear about the mudane prophecies put forth by vast majoirty of humans.

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by gordis

Are you sure, Maerbenn, that Beorn was a MAN?

I should have extended my quote a little:

Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man.

(posted at least 3 times already on this message board)

Originally Posted by gordis

The Drúedain were able to sit still for a very long time and sense danger (vaguely as animals do), but was this acually MAGIC?

I suppose it is up for interpretation. But they had at least one other strange ability:

They made also images of themselves and placed them at the entrances to tracks or at turnings of woodland paths. These they called ‘watch-stones’; ... each representing a Drúadan, larger than the life, squatting heavily upon a dead Orc. These figures served not merely as insults to their enemies; for the Orcs feared them and believed them to be filled with the malice of the Oghor-hai (for so they named the Drúedain), and able to hold communication with them. Therefore they seldom dared to touch them, or to try to destroy them, and unless in great numbers would turn back at a ‘watch-stone’ and go no further.

Remember the story ‘The Faithful Stone’?

[Gordis]

Thanks for the quotes, Maerbenn.
Actually I don't think Beorn is important to this thread. He is a character from The Hobbit and stands a little apart from other Tolkien characters with well defined origin and species characteristics.

He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin; sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.

I think on order to test the proposed theory it is much more important to check the other human characters described in the Sil that were NOT descended from Melian. There is quite a lot of them, Hador and Haleth, Beor and Marach, Hurin and Huor, Turin and Tuor and Beren. Was any of them a sorceror or a prophet?
Please, Mooters who have recently read Silmarillion, help!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

my, what an interesting read this thread is! my thoughts are that the dunedain have greater power than lesser men, and the lords of the dunedain even greater so

[Gordis]

Concerning healing powers I remember that Aragorn told that Erlond was the best possible healer as he was "the oldest of our race" (LOTR) Sorry, citing from memory. So, perhaps, healing abilities were restricted to the line of Luthien.

I haven't found any prophecies made by MEN in the Silmarillion, save the single case of Huor in the Fifth battle:

Turgon answered: 'Not long now can Gondolin be hidden; and being discovered it must fall.'
Then Huor spoke and said: 'Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!'

Huor was 100 % human, NOT a descendent of Melian.

All the other human heroes (Hurin, Tuor, Turin, Beren, Morwen Nienor etc)made no prophecies and showed no magic abilities. Turin, for instance, was totally lacking foresight and even made no educated guesses about the future. At least that was my impression.

[CrazySquirrel]

Thanks, Gordis!
I think it is safe to tell that at least all the SORCERORS were descendants of Melian.

Luthien
Elwing
Erlond
Witch-King
Isildur
Beruthiel
Malbeth?

Do you know any other sorcerors?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Do you know any other sorcerors?

Yea, the Mouth of Sauron.
What about him?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by gordis

Concerning healing powers I remember that Aragorn told that Erlond was the best possible healer as he was "the oldest of our race" (LOTR) Sorry, citing from memory. So, perhaps, healing abilities were restricted to the line of Luthien.

Tolkien made some notes about healers among the Elvish, but Elrond would seem to be an exception to the general rule stated therein: That the skilled healers were not the skilled warriors. It was something to the effect that eahancing the Fea (spirit) to one of these roles, weakened it toward the other. We could , however, reconcile Elrond prominace in both these roles by thinking that since he retired from war at the end of the 2nd Age, that he then switch he spiritual enegy from war to healing, particularly since we have no indication that he was known as a healer back when he was a high commader in Gil-Galad's armies.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by gordis

Yea, the Mouth of Sauron.
What about him?

Believed to be a Black Numenorian of high status, and thus likely of some royal connection.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

That the skilled healers were not the skilled warriors. It was something to the effect that eahancing the Fea (spirit) to one of these roles, weakened it toward the other.

I like you clarification on this subject, Lefty Scaevola.This is the reason why I consider Aragorn not as a healer, but as a person, who, thanks to his long life and being around Elrond, acqured a lot of knowledge about healing, which is for other folk would look like he is a miracle worker

[Lefty Scaevola]

There is not a stated connection between the healing skills/powers of the Numenorian royal line, and that of the Elves (and note that Elrond's power is clearly shown to be greater than Aragorns). Indeed since almost all the the Numemnorian Kings in exile were warriors, yet healing power was traditional kingly trait (so strong as to be a indicia of royalty), this would clearly put them outside the pattern stated for evlish warriors vs elvish healers.

[CrazySquirrel]

It looks like to me that my theory WORKS!!!
Even with the Mouth
A propos, perhaps MOUTH had more rights to the gondor throne than Aragorn?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

It looks like to me that my theory WORKS!!!
Even with the Mouth
A propos, perhaps MOUTH had more rights to the gondor throne than Aragorn?

Nope! The Witch -King was the rightful and lawful successor to the Throne.
Black Numenorians and Elendil's people legally were his vassals, even if they ventured an enterprises (like establishing Harad) of their own.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

A propos, perhaps MOUTH had more rights to the gondor throne than Aragorn?

IF we consider wraiths as possible claimants, than Olmer is right, and the WK has precedence. Then comes the wraith of Earnur

But I think CS meant pretenders among living men?

IF Mouth was a male line descendant of Castamir (who left two sons in Umbar, as far as I remember) then his claim was better than Aragorn's.

Actually it is interesting that Sauron promised Mouth the Lordship of Isengard, NOT that of Minas Tirith.
So who would have become the new king of Gondor? I think the Witch-King.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

So who would have become the new king of Gondor? I think the Witch-King

would you trust him just out of reach? i dont think so, i believe khamul would have received minas tirith, and wikkie would have been kept at morgul

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

would you trust him just out of reach? i dont think so, i believe khamul would have received minas tirith, and wikkie would have been kept at morgul

I think Sauron trusted the WK to a large extent, he even sent him to find his Ring!
The Witch-King entered Minas Tirith wearing a crown; I think Sauron promised him Gondor. That's another question was Sau going to keep his promise.
But when Sauron obtained the One, he could then give the Nine rings back to nazgul and then control them really effectively. So why not?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

maybe, but i cant trust wikkie, khamul on the other hand, now he does as hes told (maybe a bit henpecked )