I hate Turin

I really do. I mean, he did kill Glaurung, but look at everything else he did.

1. Caused the fall of Nargothrond. (By not listening to the elves with Ulmo's message.)

2. Killed Beleg

3. Let Finduilas die.

4. Killed Brandir

I don't think those last three are really fair. They were unintentional.

You can't hate him. He was cursed. Everything he did was bound to turn out badly until he died and his sister died. All while his father was stuck on a chair on Thangorodrim watching helplessly. Yet another reason why Morgoth = a really mean person.

There's a contrast in the fates of the houses of Hurin, Huor and Barahir.

Hurin and Turin were the most unfortunate. Barahir was killed but his son Beren got a Silmaril from Morgoth. And Huor' son Tuor was favoured by Ulmo, saved a portion of Gondolin's people, and Earendil Tuor's son rescued everybody by going to Valinor.

Yup, the poor dude was most definitely cursed. I felt bad for him (and family) more than anything. "You can't win for losin' " was a phrase that might have been coined for Hurin's line. Isn't there something about Turin being involved in the last battle, killing Morgoth or something? I have only read LOTR, the Silmarillion and the Book of Lost Tales, but I think someone on Entmoot said something awhile back about Turin's role in the Last Battle. If that's the case, could any of you tell me where that's located?

I might have said that, I believe I have once or twice, but if so it was erroneous, or out of context (but I believed it to be true, having not thoroughly read the passages). That belongs to the older mythology. Turin was to return in the Last Battle on the plains of Valinor, on the one hand of Manwe (Tulkas would be on the other). He would slay Morgoth returned with his black sword, and become a Vala. The much later (and I think final) idea was that he would return to a different kind of Last Battle. The Last Battle of the Wars of Beleriand. There he would slay Ancalagon The Black, a very drastic departure from all the older texts, which have Earendil slaying Ancalagon. It occurs in a note to Of Dwarves of Men in Late Writings of The Peoples of Middle-earth, Volume XII of the History of Middle-earth.

I think it was in context to the languages of Beleriand spoken. Earendil was supposed to have spoke on behalf of all the peoples of Beleriand before the Valar, he spoke in Quenya, in Sindarin, and in the languages of the Marachians and the Beorians. The note (or the end of that sentence in the text) says he did not speak in the language of the Halethrim. The note explains this is because the last of that people were wiped out in the wrath of Hurin. That language would never to be heard again, unless (as some held), and than follows the bit about Turin and Ancalagon.

Ah, so its' not an Armageddon type thing, but something different. Thanks, that makes more sense.

I find it hard to believe Hurin wiped out the Haladin single handedly. Was he that strong? Or were the Haladin rather wimpy?

He was that strong. Hurin, before he was captured at any rate, was said (in the Silmarillion) to be the greatest warrior of Beleriand (or west of the Ered Luin, something like that, Dor-lomin isn't in Beleriand). Probably the quote said the greatest warrior of his time.

Being the most skilled in combat, and being filled with a hot wrath because of the deceits of Morgoth, he would be able to wipe out the Halethrim, who had dwindled to a small people as the result of constant warfare in a secluded life with few women, many of which were warriors themselves, and most of these did not wed.

You don't piss off Hurin!

"was said (in the Silmarillion) to be the greatest warrior of Beleriand (or west of the Ered Luin, something like that, Dor-lomin isn't in Beleriand). Probably the quote said the greatest warrior of his time."


You sell old Hurin short!

It says in the Silmarilion: "Thus passed Hurin, mightiest of the warriors of mortal men" so you see he was the greatest mortal warrior ever.

There ya go.

In one respect I gave him more credit, for I thought his mightiness surpassed even Elves, but the actual quote seems to imply there are greater warriors among Elves (but probably still very few).

Well there is no way he's mightier than Feanor.

As to other Elves I don't know. I think some of it depends on whether we think that Hurin could have defeated a Balrog. We see that Gothmog was reluctant to fight Hurin, perhaps this is an indicator?

If Hurin could have defeated a Balrog without dying that would put him above all Elves except Feanor and perhaps Fingolfin and perhaps equal to Finrod ( he seemed to be getting the upper hand over Gothmog untill another Balrog came and both Balrog's overpowered him )

Of course we never get a real picture of how powerful Hurin is in relation to the mightiest of Elves.

In my personal oppinion, taking into consideration the limited text that Tolkien provided on the subjecr I would say that Hurin could defeat a Balrog and survive.

I wouldn't use the Balrogs as a scale, personally, precisely because of the limited text that Tolkien provided on the subject. The battles with Elves and Balrogs were first written when Balrogs were an entire race of people, thousands of which rode into battle. They didn't change until Tolkien revised the Lord of the Rings, with the Balrog of Moria. After that he (Tolkien) eventually decided there were only seven Balrogs altogether, and the battle between a Balrog and Glorfindel at least he noted should be radically altered.

I am not sure that if he had gotten to the revision of Balrogs the Elves would have been as successful as they were said to be in slaying them. Maybe Feanor would have been killed by Gothmog, alone and unaided, or maybe they would not have fought. For the Balrogs undoubtedly and inevitably would have been used more sparingly, and their power and importance would have been greatly increased. It says somewhere in there that several Balrogs survived the Ruin of Beleriand, and hid themselves in deep places. That was probably when there were thousands upon thousands of Balrogs. With seven Balrogs, four dead, in light of the old idea, how many would have survived? Just one probably, and that the one that Durin's folk woke in Khazad-dum.

Anyway I don't think Feanor was the greatest Elven warrior either. Fingolfin seems greater in my eyes, but I'd have to look into it.

But wait, going back to that 'greatest of mortal men' passage. Was that to be found in the account of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad or Of Turin Turambar, or both? If any of these, than I think it ought to be interpreted differently. This may not mean 'the greatest Man ever.' For within the modes of the tale the Quenta Silmarillion is a compilation made in Numenore before its spiritual Fall of many longer tales, shortened and strung together. 'Of Turin Turambar' was made from the Narn-I-Hin-Hurin, the Tale of the Children of Hurin (which you can actually find in Unfinished Tales). That was written by Dirhavel, who died in the assault of the sons of Feanor upon the Mouths of Sirion - before the First Age ended. It would not include the mortal warriors of later time, although it would still be possible. I keep thinking of Tar-Calion (Ar-Pharazon).

Elendil went against Sauron himself. Okay, Sauron suddenly came out and attacked, but Elendil and Gil-galad (with Isildur tagging along at the end) must have pretty mighty to tackle and beat a Maia.

Plus, Martinez suggests that at the end of the 2nd Age, Sauron was very mighty indeed in personal power. (there I go dropping names again ...*sigh*... )

Maybe Elendil was stronger than Hurin? If Elendil could face Sauron like that, I think he may have been able to take on a Balrog.

I know that Balrogs were completely different in the BOLT, letters e.t.c that there were thousands of them but this is not the case in Quenta Silmarilion, I get the impression that there were perhaps 50 Balrogs there abouts. I agree with you that the nature of Balrogs were again changed to be more powerful and less numerous by the time Tolkien wrote The lord of the Rings. I agree with you that due to the revised nature of Balrogs, Elves such as Ecthelion and Glorfindel might not have been able to do what they did in The Silmarilion.

However I completely disagree with you about Feanor and Fingolfin. Remember whether Balrogs were revised or not Fingolfin battled Morgoth himself and did very well. I strongly doubt Tolkien would have changed this. Therefore do you still think that Gothmog, a Maia considerably less powerful than morgoth could have defeated Feanor single handedly?

To me it's stated clearly in Quenta Silmarilion that Feanor is the mightiest Elf of all. Here are some quotes from Silmarilion which demonstrate this fact:

When Miriel says to Finwe: 'Never again shall I bear child;for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Feanor.'


'Then he died; but he had neither burial or tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.'

'For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvitar, and a bright flame was in him.'

Hurin.

I hadn't thought of the case of Elendil and Gil-Galad defeating Sauron in relation to this debate. Therefore in my oppinion Hurin being the mightiest man could definitely have defeated a Balrog and probably survive too, even with the most revised version of the Balrog. Here's the exact quote about Hurin in 'The Ruin of Doriath':

'But it is said that Hurin would not live thereafter, being bereft of all purpose and desire, and cast himself at last into the western sea; and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.'

How could there be only seven Balrogs? If there had been only seven, wouldn't the Valar have easily defeated Morgoth in the wars before the Elves? There were no Orcs, men, or Dragons yet, so they could have easily defeated him if there were only seven. Maybe (this is just a guess) only seven were alive when the Elves were.

Balrogs weren't the only Maiar in the service of Morgoth. They were mentioned as being the most terrible of them all. We don't get to know the names or natures of any of the others except for Sauron.

Morgoth was considerably lessened in power when Fingolfin fought him. He was Melkor no more, and in might he would never arise again, unless it were the Last Battle of the world. He was made lesser because of the power that had gone out of him, in the corruptions of all his doings, whether in Orcs or Dragons or the flesh (hroa) of the earth. As Michael Martinez once said (which is what easterlinge was referring to, but MM was not merely stating an opinion) Sauron at the height of his power with the One Ring was greater than Morgoth was in his dominion of Angband. So I don't know that a Balrog, particularly I would suppose Gothmog, was very much lesser than Morgoth in battle.

Whether the statement about Sauron becoming greater than Morgoth was applied to arms in battle, I don't know.

Anyway, it states in Of the Princes of the Eldalie that Fingolfin was the strongest and most valiant of the sons of Finwe.

JRR Tolkien says somewhere in Peoples of Middle-earth - I think that is where it is - that Elven bodies robbed of their spirit quickly disintegrate and vanish.

'Mighties of the Noldor' is somewhat vague, and must not refer to arms in battle, because of the passage in the Princes chapter. He was the greatest Noldo in technicle skill and invention, and almost also in Wisdom, in the sense of Knowledge, and the older applications of Philosophy, which included science, but this 'might have proved true, if he had not become the proudest and most arrogant'.

Tolkien does say that he with Galadriel and Luthien were the greatest of the Eldar that ever were. I do not think 'fighting' is here concerned anymore than it is with the order of the Valar and Valier.

Yet we have your quote about his valour being the greatest of all the Children of Iluvatar. Why Fingolfin should be listed as the most valiant of the sons of Feanor is beyond me.

Somewhy I continually get the impression people do not really respect the terrible power of the Valaraukar. Are you aware of the fact that (I believe) noone has fought a Balrog and lived? It took Olorin ten days to defeat a Balrog and of course he died himself. There was magic involved in that, the fire that kindles and fans to leaping light was set against the dark flame that consumes and devours, and both were destroyed. I think Hurin would have met a similar doom.

Captain, there was Osse, but he hardly counts as he went back to the service of Ulmo.

Compared to Beren, Barahir, Elendil and Hurin, Aragorn seems a bit wimpy.

How would you rank:
Hurin (reputed mightiest warrior)
Turin (killed Glaurung)
Huor (Don't remember)
Tuor (helped evacuate Gondolin. Must've fought a sea of Orcs)
Barahir (covered Finrod's retreat like Hurin covered Turgon)
Beren (Commando warfare before Silmaril Quest. Also passing through Forest north of Doriath, and Silmaril Quest)
Elendil ( Threw down Sauron)
Isildur (Helped his dad throw down sauron.)
Anarion (Same as above. Got killed earlier on.)
Earnur ( Tried to fight Nazgul)
Ar-Pharazon (Threw down Sauron)
Hador Goldenhead (???)
Aragorn ( Hmmmm. It was Frodo really that did in Sauron? )

It does say that Morgoth still kept the majesty of a Vala be it turned to darkness. I don't know if this qualifies as still having the might of the weakest Vala but surely he was still more powerful than a Balrog who was a Maia.

I don't think it's fair to say that Sauron was ever near to Morgoth's might, it was spread around yes, but it was still there. Might in combat is another matter entirely though. Even in terms of combat I seriously doubt that Sauron was ever as mighty as Morgoth even at his weakest. I think this because Sauron was defeated by Gil Galad and Elendil in comparisson to Morgoth DEFEATING Fingolfin who I'm going out on a limb here by saying is much mightier than both Gil Galad and Elendil.

You're right it does say that Fingolfin was the strongest and most valiant of the sons of Finwe in "Of the princes of the Eldalie" and it's the only part that seems to disagree with Feanor being mightier in combat. However there are so many other parts in The Silmarilion where Feanor is said to be the mightiest. Silmarilion was based on numerous notes inconsistencies are bound to occur.


" JRR Tolkien says somewhere in Peoples of Middle-earth - I think that is where it is - that Elven bodies robbed of their spirit quickly disintegrate and vanish." Well as we all know Tolkien changes his mind all the time. In the Silmarilion this only happens to Feanor and it seems quite exceptional. Fingolfin was killed much more swiftly than Feanor and his body didn't do any such thing. Feanor was still alive after his battle with the Balrogs, he was carried away, had time to talk to his sons, look at Thangorodrim and have a little think and then died. Hardly having his spirit robbed quickly was it.

I strongly think that it was definitely Tolkien's intention to portray Feanor as THE MOST increadible of individuals in all aspects as the quote implies but there are quite a few contradictions which can confuse people.

When you think about it the trully mighty of the Children of Illuvitar are increadibly rare and I think it's quite safe to say that none will apear again, except of course those such as Feanor and Fingolfin who aren't truly dead. Ok there are only 7 Balrogs but let's look at how many Elves or men who could have definnetely or maybe defeated them ( note, I'm talking about the revised Balrogs ):

Feanor
Fingolfin
Hurin


When you look at that it doesn't seem ridiculous that any of the children of Illuvitar could defeat a Balrog who are 7 among many many other maiar not to mention the Vala themselves.